the_siobhan | if I were a rhetorical question, I would look like this

friendly acquaintances, sure.

wait, it depends on your definition of pro-life. if pro-life equals no one should get an abortion ever and i will work to make sure that no one does, then, well, i work for the catholic church and many of my coworkers are of that stripe, and some days it's hard not to run them over in the parking lot.

but pro-life, i wouldn't get an abortion and i wish you wouldn't either but if you do i won't publish your license plate on the internet and i'll still invite you to potlucks, sure.

i think that the "no one should be allowed to have an abortion" crowd are about legislating autonomy. that is, legislating yours and mine right the hell down the toilet. and people who think i'm not a grownup and shouldn't be allowed to make decisions about whether or not i'm going to host alien parasites? well, did i mention the temptation to run them over in the parking lot?

In my mind, it comes down largely to their rationale; if they truly, honestly believe that it's murder, then I have less problem with it (1). But if they start tossing around the word "responsibility" and I get the impression they feel having babies is just your punishment for having sex, I suddenly start feeling pretty murderous myself. This is far more common than I would like, even among those without religious reasons.

(1) I have quite a few artsy and literary friends whose grasp of math and science is tenuous.

Odd. I tried to respond to this:
Infinite loop in style or layer

Anyway, the answer is yes.
It's the elephant in the room. Just pretend the divide isn't there and avoid the subject. It's easy, isn't it?

Unless you're the kind of person who spends days and nights talking about abortion non-stop.

Or that it's a fundamental tenent of their over-all incompatable belief system.

It comes up more often than you might think.

In part because of Jenn - People hear her story and they start telling me how wonderful they think it is that I "didn'T take the easy way out". A nd I start thinking "HELLO, you have NO fucking idea what you are talking about."

I can't intellectually think of any reason why not, if the relationship were such that the topic never came up in conversation.

In real life I can't imagine having enough in common with somoene whose basic values were that different from my own that we would ever be friends.

This reminds me that my "Semantics/I am not 'pro-choice,' I'm pro-liberty" rant needs writing.

Yeah, I can see how that would be an impediment to avoiding the topic.

I still say you can be friends, if you want.

:\

I get that from pro-life types too, from the other end, Jenn's end I guess.

"Aren't you glad your mother didn't choose abortion?"

Um, moot point anyone?

I think it depends on how strongly both of you feel on the topic. My politics are just so much of part of who I am. I can't be friends with someone I don't respect, and I don't respect the anti-choice movement. I also have kind of a hard time with "I'm pro-choice but..."

Like someone else said, I think you can certainly be acquaintances, but a deep friendship has to be based on respect, compassion, and understanding.

It entirely depends on how much they respect your point of view. If it's a personal belief, then yeah, I'm friends with people who old opposing points of view on a number of issues that I consider important.

If, OTOH, they are of the "my POV is the only right choice, anybody who thinks otherwise is morally deficient and should be shot" school of thought then that becomes more tricky.

Particularly when they try to shoot you. Friends don't train firearms on friends.

i had a really bizarre argument with somebody who said that he didn't think these irresponsable women should be having sex before marriage anyway.

I pointed out to him that married women sometimes didn't want kids and that I am in a long-term relationship[1] and I would have an abortion if I got pregnant.

Then he started telling me that there was more to marriage than sex and that I shouldn't be "using" my partner. No, he wasn't advocating celebacy, but I shouldn't be using my partner solely for sex.

Weirdest conversation ever. I started wondering if he had the foggiest idea how conception even happens.

[1] I left it at one. No point confusing the issue.

Is it possible for somebody who is pro-life and somebody who is pro-choice to be friends?

If it's not, then if you changed your mind, you'd have to dump all your friends.

Which I'm sure some people might do, and others wouldn't.

I was pretty pro-life when I was, oh, twelve or so. But everything was really abstract at that age. For some people (the good liberals?) it always is, and a good friend is someone you can argue well with. I remember my horror, as an undergrad, when I discovered that some campus political hacks of diametrically opposite stripes were actually very friendly with each other when it wasn't time to explain to an audience why the other was an idiot.

I have several friends and family members that are pro-life, and we have talked, at great length, about our different issues. I think a pro-lifer and a pro-choicer can indeed be good (if not great) friends, if they remember one thing:
you can't change anyone's mind who doesn't want it changed.
That being said, I've had wonderful debates with my very pro-life, very conservative father (who, ps, is not nearly as conservative as he pretends to be), and I respect his opinion because it's his opinion. He's entitled to it, he's mulled it over and thought heavily on it, and, here's the kicker, he therefore doesn't blindly subscribe to a way of thinking.
Those are the people I have problems with: the ones who are pro-life (or pro-choice, or anti-feminist, or feminist, or what have you) because basically, someone told them to be.
I respect people who have actually thought out the issue, from both sides, and come to a conclusion.
I was pro-life until I read The Worst of Times, and began to consider what life was like when abortion was illegal.
I wish we lived in a world in which every person was wanted, and could be cared for, and provided for, but we don't live in that world. I mulled over my thoughts, and came to be pro-choice.
I can't disrespect someone who mulled it over and decided on the other side.
Zealots scare the holy bejeesus out of me, regardless of what they subscribe to, whether they're "on my side" or not.

I'm actually pretty cool with the "pro-choice but" camp. They are supporting my right to choose even when it squicks them out. I can respect that.

For the same reason I'm comfortable with the "pro-life but against legislating it" mindset.

I understand that. I think most feel that way.

I just always feel like there's a judgement behind that "but." That "I wouldn't do it" seems like "I'm better.more responsible.more moral.whatever than you." Why but? Why not just be pro-choice?

I can't disrespect someone who mulled it over and decided on the other side.
Okay. However, if you are pro-choice, and the other side is anti-choice, the other side wants rights over your body. That, to me, is as big a moral no-no as abortion is to them. That seems insurmountable to me.

Okay. However, if you are pro-choice, and the other side is anti-choice, the other side wants rights over your body. That, to me, is as big a moral no-no as abortion is to them. That seems insurmountable to me.

You're right, of course. I can't argue with that. BUT I do find that the majority of people I am friends with that are anti-abortion are anti-abortion on principle (i.e. against abortion) rather than fighting for any legal claims over women's bodies.
I guess perhaps the ones I know are pro-life (anti-abortion) for themselves, but perhaps not anti-choice?
The question was posed pro-life versus pro-choice. I know people who are pro-life but not anti-choice.
Does that make sense?
i.e. I'm not friends with people who protest outside of clinics and write down license plate numbers and harass people who work at the clinic.

also, ps. v. tired. I may not make sense in my response. will clarify any problems come morning :)

When I say "anti-choice" I mean anyone who is against a woman's right to choose. They don't have to be the nutbars who bomb clinics and scream at teenagers. There are some nice reasonable people who are anti-choice. But they do not believe in your right to choose an abortion, or not, as you see fit. They would rather women die than have abortions. That's not "pro-life." That's "pro-fetus."

I will look it up in the morning, but as far as I remember, early anti-choicers paid a marketing firm for that whole "pro-life" spin. The leaders of this movement are also pro-war and for the death peanalty. I don't see the "life" in that.

That all sounds kinda hostile, but you know I'm not mad atacha! I'm just being my political self. :P

I hear ya!! (See my response about "in the morning" :P)

I have friends who are pro-life.

I think what it comes down to is understanding why the other feels the way they do - but respectfully thinking that they're full of shit.

*nods* agreed - I am of the second variety of pro-lifer, and believe me, being on the alternative scene, the poly-bi scene and in britain it means people react with revulsion and bile to that statement.

I don't want to criminalise abortion, it will only lead to backstreet clinics and health risks etc. BUT I believe that a child is alive from the moment of conception, and that therefore it is NOT just the woman's body, but also the child's life that needs to be considered.

Incidentally, at 19 I fell pregnant by a violent drug addict when I lived alone in another country. The result of that pregnancy turned 16 yesterday. So I'm not talking from a lofty point of "never happened to me", it has, and I made the choice.

I'm also a feminist. And won't eat Domino's pizza because the founder takes his wealth and gives it to extremist pro-life groups

It's great to see someone else who understands that not all pro-lifers are anti-choice!

Being of the "but" camp..

Because even though I accept that choice is essential and more evil will occur by criminalising abortion than will be caused by aborting unwanted babies, I still consider abortion the lesser of two evils - I do not consider it an OK thing to happen. Sometimes it is important for physical health, sometimes for mental health, but in my mind I can never ever lose the gut instinct that tells me it is killing a baby.

Incidentally, I don't judge people who have had an abortion as being bad and wrong, or in any way "worse" than me. If they are a close friend, I do ask if I can discuss with them why they made such a difficult choice, and I find that helps, as I can see then that there WERE good reasons, that it WAS the right choice.

That's damn near exactly what I was going to say. :)

Gessi

I think what it comes down to is understanding why the other feels the way they do - but respectfully thinking that they're full of shit.

Thanks for saying in one sentence, what I was trying to say in many paragraphs!

If the friendship is based on mutual respect and trust and both parties can communicate effectively on subjects upon which they disagree, then yes.

If the friendship is based on little more than common interests/circumstances, then it may be possible for both parties to share in company/activities without the subject ever coming up, but those people would be activitie's buddies and not really friends.

Most of the time the answer tends to be no because it is often too difficult to maintain a close friendship between two people whose core values are different.

One can only argue an issue with a friend so many times before reaching the point of diminished returns.

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