the_siobhan | if I were a rhetorical question, I would look like this

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the personal is political

if I were a rhetorical question, I would look like this

Is it possible for somebody who is pro-life and somebody who is pro-choice to be friends?

Is it simply a matter of difference of opinion? Or is it more than that? Is there an underlying difference in values that makes it impossible to be friends?

What do you think?

What I'm listening to right this second: Stromkern

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I can see then that there WERE good reasons, that it WAS the right choice.
Can I ask, what would be the "bad" reasons?

It's like not being friends with someone because of the colour of their skin or their cultural background, it's irrational.

Meh, you can change your mind, but you can't change your skin. :P

Men go out to the battle field and take lives all the time. My mother ended her mother's life because she was never going to wake up, she was brain dead, and she was dying slowly and painfully. Are those instances so different? People take lives. Then they either learn to live and love again, or they're haunted.

That's the part I've always found interesting about the entire debate. There always seems to be such emphasis on protecting the fetus, but it's life beomes so much less valuable, or at least so much less noted once it's born. (Speaking about the vocal and radical anti-abortion stance of course. Individuals have views that are so much more complex than that.)

Thank you for contributing. Seriously.

Things "come up" though. It's in the news. A friend talks about it in your hearing. A celebrity comes out on one side or the other.

I used to fundraise for The United Way, an umbrella charity here in Canada. I would talk to people who would flat out say that they won't donate because The United Way funds Planned Parenthood, and they are pro-life.

It doesn't come up every day, but it does come up.

I definitely have at least one friend in this category (and I think two.) They're afraid to 'come out' to our general group though for fear of losing all their friends.

I've had friends who were afraid to tell me about their abortion because they thought I would look down on them for it.

Keep in mind that there is also the other side of the coin.

Women do have abortions they don't want because is there aren't enough resources available for them to keep their child in anything but the most minimal conditions. The choice is often an abortion or a life of poverty, and that's not exactly a "choice" either.

See to me, the "but" camp is acknowleging that there is no perfect birth control. "I'm pro-life but I know we don't live in a perfect world." "I'm pro-choice even though I'm not personally comfortable with abortion because I know not everybody has the same options that I do."

Ambiguity is the fact of the human condition. I see no problem with people expressing that.

Absolutely. Women have abortions for a million reasons, and none of them are wrong. I wish we had a hell of a lot more options for women who have children, for any reason.
That's why I don't trust a lot of anti-choice rhetoric either, because it's all about the fetus, but ignores the actual child, and the mother.

Thing is, anti-choice people take that argument and run with it. When I got pregnant, I was the perfect candidate to keep that child, by that reasoning. I has some university education, I had a job, I had parents who would have supported me and that child, I live in a country that has comparatively good social programs. I chose abortion because I did not want a child, pure and simple. For a lot of people, that's a "selfish" and "wrong" choice. I'll agree that it was selfish, I won't agree that it was wrong. It was my choice, and I made it, for no other reason that I didn't want a child.

Heh, I just see it from the other side entirely.
The "but" camp says "there are always other options" and sometimes, there just aren't. The "but" camp says "I didn't have an abortion, so why should you?" Well, why the heck not?!

Bottom line: "But" is conditional support, and I want full support. Idealistic, I know. :(

To your original question, I want my friends to say "I support your decision" not "I support your decision but..." If I said to you, "It's all nice that you had Jenn, but you could of just had an abortion" what kind of fucking friend would I be?! Your life happened as it did, and I'm behind you. Full stop.

See I don't see the "but" as a lack of support. It sounds to me like you are making it about your feelings, and I think for the people who are saying it, it is about reconciling theirs.

I have had people say about the experience of having to give up Jenn, "I'm sorry you had to go through all that because it sounds like it was really hard." That's not saying they think I made the wrong choice, that's saying they wished I'd had more or easier options.

And now I have to get off the computer and go pack.

This is true. But your decisions on what happens to your own body are what make you...you.

You will never share or have the exact reasons and histories behind the decision of what happens to your body. There are so many factors to each individual that make a person form an opinion. I like to think that although our minds might change...they are our own minds to change and no one can tell us why we have to change them. That is our individual decision in everything.

"I'm sorry you had to go through all that because it sounds like it was really hard."

There's no but in there. ;) That's pretty damn supportive, full stop.

It sounds to me like you are making it about your feelings, and I think for the people who are saying it, it is about reconciling theirs.
Yeeeeah... Is this bad?
Most people who have responded have based their comments on their own experience and feelings. I'm not sure if that shapes or is shaped by our politics...
Your question is about friendship, so we're totally going to talk more about feelings. :)

they are our own minds to change and no one can tell us why we have to change them. That is our individual decision in everything.
Yup, which is pro-choice. ;)

trying to "fix" someone else's beliefs.
On the abortion topic, being pro-choice isn't about trying to change someone's mind, it's about letting them do whatever the hell they want with their body. If you don't want an abortion, fine, no one will force you to have one! :P

With the war, ugh. That's tough, and I can totally see how you get stopped up...

So yeah, I don't think it's fair to not choose to be with friends with a person solely because they disagree with your point of view.

If they disrespect you because of your point of view, ie. make fun of you or bully you, then that is a different matter.

I think it's entirely possible to support someone's decision to have an abortion, while wishing that it were not necessary for them to make that decision. I've never had an abortion, but I don't imagine that it's a fun or easy thing. I will always fully support any friend who decides to have an abortion, but I will also always wish that they hadn't had to experience it.Does that make sense?

To me, that *is* being fully supportive. It becomes non-supportive only when someone says "I support your decision to have an abortion", and then tries to talk you out of it/expresses disapproval or disappointment etc.

I don't think it's fair to not choose to be with friends with a person solely because they disagree with your point of view.
For most things this works. Like if someone is Catholic, and I'm an atheist, we can certainly be friends, and agree to disagree on the existence or absence of God. You like lima beans and I don't. Fair enough.
For this issue though, it's very had for me to feel respected by someone who wants agency over my body. They can say "Well yeah I guess abortion is okay BUT you shouldn't have had to do it" well yeah I did have to do it. Many women have to do it for a lot of reasons. Anyone thinking that they know better what I should do with my body, is not my friend.

I will also always wish that they hadn't had to experience it
Unplanned pregnancy, no matter the outcome, is a tough thing!
No doubt about that. That's not really what I'm talking about when I talk about the "I'm pro-choice but..." camp. To me saying "I'd never do it though" is expressing disapproval.

Erm, to clarify that, because Steph brought up a good point.
If they say "Oh abortion is a tough thing to go through" fine. It's the "Abortion is okay BUT you could have kept it/ gave it up for adoption/whatever" isn't supportive to me. It's second guessing me.
I'm afraid I'm not making that distinction clear, here and elsewhere.

I can understand that. I guess what I am trying to say is that I find this issue to be very personal and that I am pro-choice as a general opinion because I do believe in every woman's right to choose.

But as an individual opinion where I am conversing with someone in my group who thinks they know better what I should do with my body....hmmm..you bring up a good point here.

The thing is, are they telling me I have no right to an abortion if I needed it? Are they saying I am the lowest of the low for having one? Then.....they're not my friend.

If they simply feel that they wouldn't choose abortion for themselves, then they are still my friend if they respect my right for having one.

"Abortion is okay BUT you could have kept it/ gave it up for adoption/whatever."

Yeah, that's not being a friend to you. That's actually something that I find really rude and disrespectful and not at all friendship-material.

My mother did choose abortion, but then she changed her mind and cancelled her appointment the week of; my response to that question has always been that I'm glad my mother had the choice, because I know I was really wanted.

Well, to clarify my situation, I'm adopted.
So I get the "Aren't you glad..." thing a bit more often than "normal", I guess.

I see what you mean now.

My POV is that I don't think the "but" always or necessarily expresses/means disapproval. There are a lot of things I wouldn't do that I don't disapprove of other people doing.

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