the_siobhan | kids these days pt II

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kids these days pt II

I have a couple of glasses of wine in me and I"m still thinking about "drama". (Seriously, if I quit drinking, what the hell am I going to use for inspiration?) From my point of view, drama is essentially conflict. But by my definition of the term, it's not conflict that's being dealt with directly.

During a recent somewhat beer-sodden conversation with a friend, said friend expressed some trepidation about the reactions that might have to be dealt with at an upcoming party. Without speaking for another person or pretending to be a mind reader, my impression is that said friend doesn't really give a rat's ass what other people think - but also doesn't like to be in the centre of a fuss. So I told Friend my philosophy of conflict, and finding oneself in the centre therein.

Which is that when people are pissed at you, they tend to have one of three reactions.

1. They don't tell you.

Maybe they put a high value on just getting along. Maybe your trespass wasn't that high on their internal list of Shit One Does Not Do so it's just not worth the hassle of getting into a discussion about it. Whatever their reasons, I figure if they won't tell me about it what they are really communicating is that it just ain't my problem. Next!

2. They don't tell you but they tell everybody else.

There are gradations of this behaviour. I think everybody indulges in it in it's mildest form. I don't think I've met a single person in my life who never did something I disagreed with, and I'm no so perfect that I'm above saying, "What the hell was X thinking?" in private conversations. In it's most poisonous and unhelpful form, it results in broken confidences, spreading rumours and telling lies. And if somebody does that, they are a) an asshole and b) not my friend. And if people believe the lies and don't talk to me about it, they are a) assholes and b) not my friends either.

And if they aren't my friend, why should I give a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut what some bunch of assholes think of me? Next!

3. They have a problem with you and they tell you about it.

Then you get to have a conversation. Even if it goes badly, at least then you know where you stand.

Just to be clear, I'm not dismissing the pain of losing actual friendships. That sucks no matter how it goes down. I'm thinking specifically of the kind of weird group social interactions that only seem to have become possible since the invention of the internet, which created a unique environment where of dozens of people can now all have a hissy-fit over the same thing at the same time. And since the invention of LJ, they can now also friends-lock it.

Even so, I'm aware that I'm probably unusual in my response to these things. I made a conscious decision that I Don't Care What Other People Think back in high school, and I've never regretted it once.

I'm inventing a new astrology. I've decided that one of the signs will be Bull in China Shop.

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4. They have a problem with you but won't admit it to themselves?

And thus engage in some weird variation of #2. Been there.

Next!

Also a few glasses in, it occurs to me that the other day we saw actual bulls in very close proximity to actual china shops. This is funnier than it probably should be.

You're right! That's something that never occurred to me.

I hate #2. Just hate it. Stupid, counterproductive shit.

You know how #2 has caused me problems in the past few years. And it appears to be still ongoing. I try hard to not care what other people think, but sometimes it hurts. :(

How could anyone, EVER be pissed at you?!
You are the wonderful Siobhan!

Everybody makes mistakes.

Mine tend to be due to oblivious rather than malice, but still.

you're awesome.

And if people believe the lies and don't talk to me about it, they are a) assholes and b) not my friends either.
Well, if they believe the lies why would they talk to you about it? Just going by my own experience here, there was a campaign of "Panic is Batshit." If people believed that, it makes sense they wouldn't come to me, because I'd just be all... Batshitty about it. Turns out I'm not. :P

Which leads me to why a specific couple people are bigger, better friends that I could have imagined a couple years ago. Because they figured out the lie, and did come to me, allowing me the cast off the ballast.

As to drama, I think people use that word as shorthand for "I don't agree that your shit-giving is justified." I mean, you're approaching this from the viewpoint that your shit-giving is always in the right. It might be, but the shit-taker sure might not see it that way. They might think it's coming out of nowhere. In that case, rightly or wrongly, they'll tag it drama.

The thing about "lies" is it sometimes ends up being a matter of interpretation. When ppl on both sides of the issue in question are thinking "i'm not lying", this is a problem. Where the hell did the made up story come from? Possibly different interpretations of the facts. I know I've heard/read some fascinating stories about my friends, my former friends, myself,etc....well, who the hell came up with this shit? Why are ppl talking all this shit without bothering to hear what other folks in question have to say? Good fucking question.

Sometimes if I hear something fucked up or feel shitty about someone, I won't bring it to their attention bc I simply am not up to going there. Sometimes I think it's just MY problem and I need to get over it....which generally doesn't work out well for me bc it ends up w me resenting the shit out of someone, sometimes it's bc I don't really give enough of a shit about that person to have it out w them (honest. sad but true), and sometimes I just have too much shit going on in my head to deal w having that conversation.

sigh.

I dunno, dude.

Well in my case the lies were real whoppers. And not interpretation but stories about "Oh hey Panic did x thing to me." And x thing was, like, wildly untrue. Perhaps I will tell you the story one day. :)

As to your second paragraph, yep, ja, and si; I hear you.

How do you know the people who are telling the story are correct?

Not that they would necessarily lie to you, but people get the wrong end of a story more often than not.

There's no wrong end of this story. Liar said to these people's faces "Panic did x thing." No hearsay in interpretation involved.

Or, the people are liars, yep, that's always possible. (Of course, I don't think so, but I agree it's always possible.)

I guess it was the lies I already knew Liar had told (numerous), and the fact that their stories about me were just as outlandish as the stories they've told about others (to me). It just all fit, you know? It was the last piece in a larger puzzle.

See that kind of situation makes perfect sense to me. If people do the same thing over and over again to other people I know, it's only a matter of time before they get around to me.

Forewarned being built like Shiva 'n' all.

Yeah, and hindsight being 20/20 I sort of kick myself for believing what they told me about other people. Because I did. They're a good story-teller. They're convincing. Even though I knew they were lying about their own stuff, some of the time, it didn't really occur to me to take the leap and think they were lying about other people. I'm really naive that way.

So I don't blame anyone who didn't know me (well) for believing what Liar told them.

Now I go over all those details about all the "crazy" people they know, and I think, "Jesus, and they're telling those 'crazy' friends how crazy I am" and on and on. But it's okay. I know who's important, and who's in my lifeboat. :)

Even so, I'm aware that I'm probably unusual in my response to these things. I made a conscious decision that I Don't Care What Other People Think back in high school, and I've never regretted it once.

I came to that conclusion for myself a few years ago. Ever since then, it's been a much more free feeling life.

I like what's in your head.

<3

Psst...santa hats!

Thats all well and good as long as you arent hurting people by accident. When Im hurting people, I want to know. I like to do things on purpose, not by accident. I dont want the people I like to not like me. I dont care about the people I dont like. They been told.

It's true.

I think it's more about I Don't Care What Other People Think That Do Not Like Me. It's hard to generalize a statement and not get it all in there methinks.

There is a point at which people will think what they want to think. I will always try to be fair and I will always try not to hurt people. I won't always be successful. If I screw up I will apologize.

But you know, if I do my best and they decide I'm an asshole anyway - there isn't much I can do about that.

iawtc

That's really, really important to me.

I don't care if people don't like me based on my actual merits (or lack of same), but I really, really don't want to be doing stuff that hurts the people I care about. If I'm doing it, and I don't know it, I want somebody to TELL me so that I can cut it the fuck out.

The situations that I find really difficult are when I've done something to hurt someone inadvertently that turns out to be really hard to make right . . . it's something I've been faced with recently, and I'm not really sure what to do other than to do my absolute best to make up for my mistakes.

Sometimes, though, the 'mistakes' are in situations where someone is reacting out of their own issues, and while I did somehow cause offense, said offense was greatly magnified because of said issues. (i.e., I committed a molehill-level error, and it was made into a mountain because that person was under high stress or it was a particular trigger for them.)

I'm really uncomfortable with people talking about me in those situations -- I'd like to resolve it directly with the people involved, and I don't want shit-talk going on by people who have nothing to do with the situation and don't understand what actually happened.

*gah*

-- A :/

4. They have a problem with you but don't tell you about it until months or years after the fact, during which time they have been harbouring intense resentment against you.

I've a few people pull this on me. Each time I got an assload of grievances dumped in my lap with a large helping of "I've been miserable for the past X months/years and it's all your fault!" When I was younger, I would go to great lengths to try to fix things with no great success. Now, my reaction tends to be that I can't fix a problem if I don't know it exists. If you chose not to tell me, I won't be held responsible for that. I'll apologize for past wrongs up to a point, but there's only so much I can do in regards to things that happened months ago.

2. They don't tell you but they tell everybody else.

This bothers me to lesser or greater degrees depending on the person or the circumstances. Casual friends and acquaintances who do this may irk me, and as a result, they're unlikely to become more than acquaintances.

It bothers me a lot more when close friends do this because I figure they should, eventually, be talking to me about it. I do allow that it's sometimes necessary and useful to vent to/bounce ideas off of other people before approaching a friend about a problem. I do that to get a reality check lest I blow shit way out of proportion.

What I cannot stand is people actively lying about me, spreading other people's lies about me, or bitching about aspects of my personality/interests/life choices that are none of their business. That's a great way to lose my respect ASAP.

4. They have a problem with you but don't tell you about it until months or years after the fact, during which time they have been harbouring intense resentment against you.

hello my divorce!

They get yelled at.

Loudly.

With lots of k sounds.

Not only can one post on LJ and friend-lock it, s/he can make it so no one can respond! Hooray!

You forgot about:
I tell them, but they keep doing it so then I talk to other people about it to see if I am overreaacting.

Your second one? Everyone does that to me but I never do that. I always tell the person before I get really mad about it.

Drama is just a word that people use to disculpate themselves. Its what other people do.

They talk shit and go about all their nice social backstabbing and never consider what they are doing.

When, inevitably, the wheel turns back around to them and the grieved parties ask for accountability, then the backhanded response is "I don't do drama". Cop out, of course. End of dialogue and the original argument is obfuscated by this new brick wall of "Yes, you do" "No, I don't".

Nobody admits to causing it and most everyone lies because its not the same when it them, right?

Of the top of my head,I can think of less than 5 people who don't talk shit about other people. And, you know what? I'm not one of them though I do try not to. You, however, are one of them and that is one of the reasons you're wonderful.

Now, wtf am I doing on LJ?

First thought: I'm probably rare in that I think open conflict can be healthy. Painful oh fuck yes, but in the same way that a forest fire is painful and yet still healthy. It kills a lot of shit but it also clears away the deadwood so new things have space to take root. People who refuse any kind of conflict are denying themselves the chance to make some damn room.

Second thought: I'm often fascinated by how infrequently people see themselves in the things they say they hate. Lack of self-awareness is more common than coldsores.

Third thought: It's flattering as hell that you say I don't do that, because like you I think of it as something that I aspire to more than something that I'm good at. Either both of us are more forgiving of our friends than we are of ourselves, or we're both more sensitive to the hint of having faults that we dislike in other people.

Forth thought: Because Facebook is the suxx0r.

Fifth thought: Warhammer is on hold until I can afford a computer upgrade. Cross your fingers I get a decent bonus this year.

1) Open conflict is great. I'm all for it. Sauf exceptions, I'm generally pretty decent at reading people. I can tell pretty quickly when they have a bug up their asses about me and it gets under my skin. I never bring it up because, well, its not what I do but it certainly is a great relief when they finally come out with it. Not matter how severe, its wonderful not to feel that pressure building up. And, really, laying all the cards on the table is the best way to either fix things or have a clean break. But, lets be honest, open conflict is rare. People are afraid of it so they take potshots from the shadows, as it were.

2) People don't like to admit that there are parts of them that are fucking dark cesspools. Which, ironically, is why I think they suck. Having flaws doesn't make you a terrible person. Being willfully blind towards them does make you a terrible person. Or, at the very least, a person I don't have time for.

3) Could be either. I really don't know. What I do know is that the standards to which I try to hold myself are invariably much higher than those I hold others to. I fail pretty regularly but I don't see that as a reason to hold the bar any lower.

4) Or I unexpectedly found myself with very little to do at work on a friday afternoon. I could get used to this working only 40 hours a week thing. Its practically a vacation. ;)

5)*fingerscrossed* I'll be in Paris over Christmas and through the New Year so you'll have some time to catch up. ;)

1) Remember that conversation we had once about how the first time you get your nose broken is really intimidating? And after that it's kind of a non-event?

I once explained to somebody at work that after the first time you get chased around the room with an axe, being yelled at on the phone really isn't all that scary any more.

2) Which would explain why you hang out with goths and punks.

(Banker or not, I sometimes miss the days when people were afraid of us.)

(3 is only left out because I agree so I don't really don't have anything useful to add.)

4. I work late every day and I like it.

Somebody shoot me.

5. When are you back? We're thinking our December party isn't likely to happen in December just because everybody tends to be busy - so maybe a late January birthday party instead.

1) Hah! I hear you.

2) I had a colleague mention that he thought there was more to me than the suit and tie. All I could think was "You should see what I was doing last weekend".

4) I work constantly and have no time for a social life of any kind. And yet I'm really happy. Its a strange world, ain't it?

5) I should be back on the 5th or 6th. Keep me posted. I could likely fly in for a weekend.

re: the first - there's types of conflict that can be healthy, but then there's other conflict that is terribly unproductive. I think it's a matter of being able to gauge if something good is going to come out of it or if ppl are just going to be all FUCK YOU FOREVER. I think the depth of the relationship plays a MAJOR role as well.

re: the second - speaking for myself, i hate bullies bc I know I can be one. I find the stuff I hate most is the stuff I am terrified of becoming. When I see that shit in other ppl, I flip my goddamned wig.

re: the third - I think you talk some shit about other ppl but you aren't all cloak & dagger about it. I've not heard you talk 12 miles of shit about someone and then see you kiss their ass at the club two days later. Matter of fact, I don't think I've seen you kiss anyone's ass. I also get the impression if you talked some shit and said shit target came to you, you'd admit the shit and probably give reasons behind it.

Pt 1. I think one of the reasons I like conflict to be out in the open is because it's then so much easier to make an evaluation as to whether or not there is a salvageable relationship or if it's time to go one's separate ways. Or if the conflict in question si just one person trying to bully or demonize the other.

That might be a function of how my brain works. I'm a big fan of the testosterone system where everybody hits each other and then goes home the best of friends, their emotions now at least expressed if not resolved.

Pt 3. You know, one the places where my "be honest" impulse runs into rocks is that I also strongly believe in minding my own damn business. If somebody asks me what I think or what's going on I will tell them. Telling people I think they are wrong isn't hard for me. The trouble is that we don't really live in a culture that encourages asking questions like that - or giving straight answers if somebody does.

It so happens that the friend in my initial example is experiencing drama because of some specific decisions, some of which I don't agree with. We haven't really discussed it. Friend hasn't asked my opinion and I figure that unless zie does, it's none of my damn business. But you know, if it was regarding something big enough that I should decide to stop being friends over it, it's big enough that I should at least be honest about the reason why.

Edited 2008-11-16 06:08 (UTC)

Right there with you on this. I. don't. do. drama. If it happens near me, I try my best to ignore it. If someone attempts to involve me, I discover that there's one fewer person to need to bother with. If I inadvertently cause it, I apologize profusely.

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kids these days pt II

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