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the_siobhanIs it possible for somebody who is pro-life and somebody who is pro-choice to be friends?
Is it simply a matter of difference of opinion? Or is it more than that? Is there an underlying difference in values that makes it impossible to be friends?
What do you think?
What I'm listening to right this second: Stromkern
Is it simply a matter of difference of opinion? Or is it more than that? Is there an underlying difference in values that makes it impossible to be friends?
What do you think?
What I'm listening to right this second: Stromkern
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 03:13 am (UTC)wait, it depends on your definition of pro-life. if pro-life equals no one should get an abortion ever and i will work to make sure that no one does, then, well, i work for the catholic church and many of my coworkers are of that stripe, and some days it's hard not to run them over in the parking lot.
but pro-life, i wouldn't get an abortion and i wish you wouldn't either but if you do i won't publish your license plate on the internet and i'll still invite you to potlucks, sure.
i think that the "no one should be allowed to have an abortion" crowd are about legislating autonomy. that is, legislating yours and mine right the hell down the toilet. and people who think i'm not a grownup and shouldn't be allowed to make decisions about whether or not i'm going to host alien parasites? well, did i mention the temptation to run them over in the parking lot?
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 06:45 am (UTC)I don't want to criminalise abortion, it will only lead to backstreet clinics and health risks etc. BUT I believe that a child is alive from the moment of conception, and that therefore it is NOT just the woman's body, but also the child's life that needs to be considered.
Incidentally, at 19 I fell pregnant by a violent drug addict when I lived alone in another country. The result of that pregnancy turned 16 yesterday. So I'm not talking from a lofty point of "never happened to me", it has, and I made the choice.
I'm also a feminist. And won't eat Domino's pizza because the founder takes his wealth and gives it to extremist pro-life groups
It's great to see someone else who understands that not all pro-lifers are anti-choice!
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 03:55 pm (UTC)There used to be a group back when I was in High School - Catholics for Life, I think? Their stance was that criminalizing wouldn't work so they lobbied for better access to birth control (!), programs to increase self-esteem in girls (so they wouldn't be having sex they didn't really want) better pre-natal care, more funding for day-care and more programs for new mothers, especially new mothers who want to be able to finish school. They believed that a lot of mothers would choose to keep their children if they knew that there was going to be real practical support in helping them care for them.
Incidentally, at 19 I fell pregnant by a violent drug addict when I lived alone in another country. The result of that pregnancy turned 16 yesterday.
Mine turns 25 soon. *wry smile*. It was definitely harder and more traumatic than having an abortion. I wouldn't force anybody else to go through it.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 06:37 pm (UTC)I'd also like world peace, a cure for cancer and everyone to love their neighbour.
I know many women who have had abortions, and only one who seemed to think nothing of it, had had 3 and "I'd 'ave anover if 'e knocked me up again". Her I just wanted to shoot. Or sew her closed or something.
Abortion is never, I think, an easy choice. Even if it's the only choice you feel you have open, most find it very difficult. In the end, we are aware of what we do to our bodies and the lives inside them.
But none of the options are easy, especially if it's unplanned. Open or closed adoption, fostering, letting the child grow up with family, keeping the child... all are difficult.
That said, I would never go back and change my mind. I have had winters where we read books by candlelight under 3 covers because I had no money for blankets, given up my career in medicine because I couldn't afford to study, had no social life at university - and for me, certainly, I would never unmake that choice.
Now tell me to make a girl give up her dreams, her health and her social life, and it's unfeasibly cruel. It's just that by personal sentiment, abortion is crueller
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-08 11:27 pm (UTC)I knew somebody like that in University. She was 19 years old and had already had three abortions.
She came from a family of eleven kids, and the only time anybody got any attention was when they were in trouble. So her way of "getting in trouble" was getting knocked up over and over again.
Pretty sad story, but that didn't stop me from wanting to give her a smack.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 07:01 am (UTC)Gessi
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 03:19 am (UTC)(1) I have quite a few artsy and literary friends whose grasp of math and science is tenuous.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 04:37 am (UTC)I pointed out to him that married women sometimes didn't want kids and that I am in a long-term relationship[1] and I would have an abortion if I got pregnant.
Then he started telling me that there was more to marriage than sex and that I shouldn't be "using" my partner. No, he wasn't advocating celebacy, but I shouldn't be using my partner solely for sex.
Weirdest conversation ever. I started wondering if he had the foggiest idea how conception even happens.
[1] I left it at one. No point confusing the issue.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 03:30 am (UTC)Infinite loop in style or layer
Anyway, the answer is yes.
It's the elephant in the room. Just pretend the divide isn't there and avoid the subject. It's easy, isn't it?
Unless you're the kind of person who spends days and nights talking about abortion non-stop.
Or that it's a fundamental tenent of their over-all incompatable belief system.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 04:02 am (UTC)In part because of Jenn - People hear her story and they start telling me how wonderful they think it is that I "didn'T take the easy way out". A nd I start thinking "HELLO, you have NO fucking idea what you are talking about."
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 04:10 am (UTC)I still say you can be friends, if you want.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 04:11 am (UTC)I get that from pro-life types too, from the other end, Jenn's end I guess.
"Aren't you glad your mother didn't choose abortion?"
Um, moot point anyone?
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 02:38 pm (UTC)Moot point. If they had, I wouldn't be here and thus wouldn't give a damn.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 06:29 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 06:30 pm (UTC)So I get the "Aren't you glad..." thing a bit more often than "normal", I guess.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-07 12:17 am (UTC)The easy way??? Dude . . . physically speaking, pain-wise, I'd take birth over abortion any day of the week. (That's my utterly subjective opinion of course. Everyone experiences both differently. Point being, yeah, HELLO.) But more to the point here, not knowing the whole story, uninvolved parties seriously need to clam it. It's like that ubiquitous question asked of pregnant women, "So, was it planned?" Like, more than one total stranger asked me that! WTLF??!! Is this what passes for small talk nowadays?
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-07 04:41 pm (UTC)Dude, what kind of fucked up abortion did you have?!
That's very unusual to have that much pain. Ugh! :(
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-08 06:32 am (UTC)I think I've mentioned it before. Really and truly the pain of uncomplicated childbirth for me was a totally different thing than any medical procedure. I can't expain it any better than that. Yeah, it hurt a lot, but it wasn't the kind of hurt that sent my body into any kind of fight or flight or shock like when something's amiss. It was tooooootally different than that. It was like positive pain, pain that was supposed to be happening, so although it hurt physically, the nerves and the brain were completely on the case and it was like a high. Endorphins, etc..
Yeah, really really hard to explain. I honestly from the bottom of my heart would do it again except I don't want more kids, and, medically, I can't surrogate. It was that empowering. Call me a nutjob. :p I also think I'd totally be a Swami in another incarnation. Mastering positive pain in my body is kind of a, uhhh, thing for me. It was like conquering Mt. Everest - that level of personal achievement.
Really, I mean it. Pass the Birkenstocks. Or the leather cuffs. I'm so conflicted! But, yeah, big difference for me between bad pain and good pain. Mastering the ultimate good pain really changed my entire world view. It's why I wanted midwives so badly even though homebirth was contraindicated for diabetics. I knew I couldn't have a transformative experience when there were needles and tongs and whatever manner of medical gadgets poking me. Needle in the spine? I'd probably rather die.
So there's a wee bit about my deepest spiritual stuff. Everyone's mileage will probably vary.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-08 01:26 pm (UTC)I have no proof of this of course, but I think many women feel similar about birth. And there are those that curse its name, I'm sure. I totally believe that your body is giving you everything you need to be able to have that child, and feel good about it, even though it's doing things to your body that previous, you couldn't imagine. I'm sure I heard, maybe in an early sex ed class, about this sort of thing, and I've never had reason to doubt it!
I'll pass on the Birkenstocks though, thanks. :P
I thought you'd had a really scary bad complicated abortion though. Mine certainly wasn't a cakewalk pain wise, but I've had much worse physical pain. ;)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-08 10:04 pm (UTC)Well I don't have anything to compare it to. For all intents and purposes it appears to have been routine. The counselor explained that women feel varying amounts of pain with it. I, apparently, was on the high end of various. I dunno, maybe the pain management procedure has changed over time? It was a long time ago. All I know for sure now is that childbirth, for me, was far less traumatic. That said, on the 'various' scale for childbirth, I certainly had very smooth and quick labours.
The entire debate is completely subjective for sure, which is why it's been going on for 2000 years I guess.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-08 09:00 pm (UTC)But yeah, people do ask incredibly intrusive questions sometimes. For some reason that tendancy seems to get so much worse around pregnancy. (And let's not even go into the inappropriate touching.)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-08 10:12 pm (UTC)I admit that in a couple of cases I've cautiously asked as to whether or not it's good news when I couldn't tell from the way the pregnant person told me.
That appears to be the most effective way to go. I'm on a msg board where there are announcements like that all the time. There's often a period of sussing out the person's decision before offering congratulations or support or both. In any event, yeah, good policy.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 04:07 am (UTC)In real life I can't imagine having enough in common with somoene whose basic values were that different from my own that we would ever be friends.
This reminds me that my "Semantics/I am not 'pro-choice,' I'm pro-liberty" rant needs writing.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 04:20 am (UTC)Like someone else said, I think you can certainly be acquaintances, but a deep friendship has to be based on respect, compassion, and understanding.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 04:55 am (UTC)For the same reason I'm comfortable with the "pro-life but against legislating it" mindset.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 05:18 am (UTC)I just always feel like there's a judgement behind that "but." That "I wouldn't do it" seems like "I'm better.more responsible.more moral.whatever than you." Why but? Why not just be pro-choice?
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 06:51 am (UTC)Because even though I accept that choice is essential and more evil will occur by criminalising abortion than will be caused by aborting unwanted babies, I still consider abortion the lesser of two evils - I do not consider it an OK thing to happen. Sometimes it is important for physical health, sometimes for mental health, but in my mind I can never ever lose the gut instinct that tells me it is killing a baby.
Incidentally, I don't judge people who have had an abortion as being bad and wrong, or in any way "worse" than me. If they are a close friend, I do ask if I can discuss with them why they made such a difficult choice, and I find that helps, as I can see then that there WERE good reasons, that it WAS the right choice.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 04:34 pm (UTC)Can I ask, what would be the "bad" reasons?
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 06:42 pm (UTC)For example, on gut instinct, "financial reasons" is just not good enough for me. Then when a friend tells me she would have to give up her job because child crae costs more than she earns, so she goes on benefits, and that means losing her rented flat, and so she's go on the housing list, which is so long that she might spend 2 years in temporary accomodation (shabby hostels usually full of criminals) until she gets a counsil flat.... suddenly that's not a bad reason
I think I have found one woman who I just wanted sewn closed or sterilised or something - third abortion, she just couldn't be bothered to use contraceptives properly (her admission).
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 06:59 pm (UTC)I think I have found one woman who I just wanted sewn closed or sterilised or something
That's a terrible thing to say. You're "pro-life" but you want to see someone forcibly sterilised? That's the very definition of "anti-choice." Hey, do you know if the NHS pays for abortion? It is covered by healthcare here.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 07:48 pm (UTC)And somebody having "bad" reasons or making "bad choices", is NOT the same as them being a bad person. I don't know if you mean to come across so aggressively, but I am trying to be respectful of others opinions here, but I don't right now feel that you are being of mine.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 08:44 pm (UTC)As you have likely guessed, my view is that a fetus is not a baby, and therefore I have no moral conundrum about abortion, or anyone who has one. I wonder very much how you can say the above and also say that you don't think these are bad people. To you they are agents of death. How do you reconsile that in your head?
I am trying to be respectful of others opinions here
I felt the same until you said another woman should be forcibly steralised. I don't respect that one bit and I'm disgusted you would say it. My response to that was, indeed, meant to be aggressive.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 09:10 pm (UTC)As for my other comment - I did try to add something on, but the internet just fell over for a while, so couldn't, the comment related to my fellings on the matter. I realised reading it that it came out really badly and made me come across as some sort of new nazi! EEK! I would absolutely not ever condone enforced sterilisation of a woman. (I though the "or sewn closed or something made it sound different - it didn't). I apologise for that!
As I said higher up in the thread, I'd like an ideal world scenario where nmo woman is ever pregnant unless she wants to be, and no health condition ever threatens mother and child (incidentally, that is one area where I do not hesitate to say I am pro-choice, health reasons), but we don't. It is very difficult to reconcile what has, it seems, become the foetus vs baby debate (which, incidentally, I loathe - the terms I mean). For me life begins at conception, but I know for others it is at "quickening" and yet others birth. It's like an aetheist and a pagan arguing religion - the points at which we start are so very different we're not even really talking about the same thing
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 11:58 pm (UTC)I would absolutely not ever condone enforced sterilisation of a woman[...] I apologise for that!
Thanks.
It's like an aetheist and a pagan arguing religion
I said almost that very thing earlier today in this post! Different conclusion of course. :P
...the points at which we start are so very different we're not even really talking about the same thing
Yes, agreed and that's what's so frustrating about the whole thing. To some people, I will always be a murderer. That, in my thinking, is a great big load of crap. You yourself have a disconnect between thinking of how wrong it is, and then meeting people, talking to friends who have gone through it, and it really makes things a bit muddier for you. Actually, I'm glad for this conversation with you because it does make me understand the "but" camp a little better. Most of the "but" camp hasn't really attempted to talk to me about it, and I appreciate that you have.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-07 05:53 am (UTC)I often sum it up by saying that I think abortion is one of the the most horrible and wrong things there is, but forcing women to carry a child they don't want to term, not allowing them to control their own bodies and (as in the case of Miss X in Ireland) forcing underage rape victims to bear a child, or making women havedangerous and illegal medical procedures is one of the few things I can think of that is more wrong than abortion.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-08 08:42 pm (UTC)And yes, it's anti-choice but I can live with that.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-08 08:50 pm (UTC)But, when does it stop? You and I will put our limits on it, but if we say it then the next person says "some abuse" then "has done drugs" then "has had three abortions." So no, I just can't go there anymore.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-08 10:29 pm (UTC)Following linked article MBU.
I believe the most recent solution to continuing childbirth paired with abuse/abandonment is to jail a woman until she has passed childbearing age (http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/07/30/family.rape.ap/index.html). Is it preferable? (I really don't have the answer. Still mulling it over.)
It's common to sterilize mentally retarded adults who could not handle the trauma of accidental parenthood. I haven't fully explored my feelings on this, but I will say that my half-sister has her tubes tied and that she was/is not capable of making that decision herself. She also had a hysterectomy for uterine cancer - all her medical decisions are now made by my father because her mom died in '04. I'll also say I'm really really happy with her mom's decision on sterilization for a variety of reasons.
Based in that, if someone is permanently mentally incompetent, (as from what I've heard of your ex-friend E., she is), I think I would be okay with someone's family making that decision with advice and clearance from qualified doctors, but I'm not comfy with the state ALONE or the family ALONE assessing someone's competence on that matter. There needs to be a serious system of checks and balances there.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-08 10:36 pm (UTC)Reading that article, yeah I think it might be. Sociopaths hurt their own children, other people's children, people who aren't children. Clearly these are people who are a danger to others. Tough call though, for sure.
There needs to be a serious system of checks and balances there.
That's one of the scariest things about the condition that Sio posed, and it's the same reason I'm against the death penalty: they are wrong too often. What if the partner was the abuser, but pointed the finger at the mother and she was sterilised? In a zie said/she said situation, how can we ever be sure? I'm not even sure it's fair to do the the mentally challenged, but I have no qualifications to speak in that area.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-09 12:45 am (UTC)Given that adults have almost absolute power over their children, I very much look upon child-raising as a privilege.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-09 11:13 pm (UTC)Absolutely. I have always contended that having children is a privilege, not a right.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 01:01 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 04:18 pm (UTC)Exactly. As I say below, pro-choice is the choice to have that baby or not, have that abortion or not. It means all choices, to ever have children or not, to not have the 5th child, to not have that 1st, to never have them, to have them all.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 02:36 pm (UTC)Define "pro-choice, but". I think I'm clear on what you mean, but I'm not sure.
seems like "I'm better.more responsible.more moral.whatever than you." Why but? Why not just be pro-choice?
I take pro-choice to mean not asking anyone else to conform to my view or second-guessing theirs. There are so many shades of belief from person to person. How can two 'popularly acceptable' POVs possibly cut it? For me, pro-choice is about respecting that, being even-tempered, and seeking to understand even when confronted with methods of argument that are not ideal - respectfully arguing my position without degrading the other. (Maybe this is from teaching undergrads? Ha. Seriously, I think it is.) I mean, this isn't Soviet Russia. If someone makes it clear they understand and respect my POV despite the fact that theirs is significantly different? Big respect from me in return. That's stupidly rare and should be encouraged on both sides. Even if I got the air of "I'm better than you," you know what? I'd treat that with sincere respect to embarrass the person into doing the same. Works like a charm quite often.
For the POV record, I thought it was right for me once, and going through it changed my mind. I don't regret it, but I wouldn't do it again. Does that make me better and more responsible? Nope. Does that make me less pro-choice? No way. Does that mean I can't write this without someone throwing a guitar book in my face, vying for my attention, climbing me and yelling in my ear while I try to write cohesively? Well, yeah. So that's the end of that comment. Apparently everyone is ready to head out to Chinatown and I'm still unshowered in my peejays. Yergh!! XO ;)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 04:28 pm (UTC)"I'm pro-choice but I'd never have an abortion"
That's the big one. This is usually uttered by people who've never had an unwanted pregnancy. :P
There's also
"I'm pro-choice but I think abortion shouldn't happen ever, but if it has to I guess it should be legal"
The problem with this reasoning, is it supposes that there is a perfect method of birth-control (don't get me started on abstinence only education!), that there is never rape, incest, horny smoothed talking teenaged boys, controlling husband (Andrea Levy anyone?). Abortion has always been around, and always will be. (As you and I know, medieval priests knew that unwanted pregnancies weren't the ideal condition and sometimes helped women "menstruate" again. :P )It needs to be safe and legal.
not asking anyone else to conform to my view or second-guessing theirs.
Bingo.
I don't regret it, but I wouldn't do it again
And you choose those guitar book throwers, and I will always believe in that right too!
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 05:09 pm (UTC)Ambiguity is the fact of the human condition. I see no problem with people expressing that.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 05:20 pm (UTC)The "but" camp says "there are always other options" and sometimes, there just aren't. The "but" camp says "I didn't have an abortion, so why should you?" Well, why the heck not?!
Bottom line: "But" is conditional support, and I want full support. Idealistic, I know. :(
To your original question, I want my friends to say "I support your decision" not "I support your decision but..." If I said to you, "It's all nice that you had Jenn, but you could of just had an abortion" what kind of fucking friend would I be?! Your life happened as it did, and I'm behind you. Full stop.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 05:27 pm (UTC)I have had people say about the experience of having to give up Jenn, "I'm sorry you had to go through all that because it sounds like it was really hard." That's not saying they think I made the wrong choice, that's saying they wished I'd had more or easier options.
And now I have to get off the computer and go pack.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 05:41 pm (UTC)There's no but in there. ;) That's pretty damn supportive, full stop.
It sounds to me like you are making it about your feelings, and I think for the people who are saying it, it is about reconciling theirs.
Yeeeeah... Is this bad?
Most people who have responded have based their comments on their own experience and feelings. I'm not sure if that shapes or is shaped by our politics...
Your question is about friendship, so we're totally going to talk more about feelings. :)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 06:43 pm (UTC)>think for the people who are saying it, it is about reconciling theirs.
Yeeeeah... Is this bad?
Well, I think it can lead to defensiveness. People have to reconcile their actions with their own belief systems. I think it's asking too much to expect them to act as if their belief systems coincided with ours.
I disagree with some of the choices some people make in terms of other parts of their lives. In fact I am occasionally Really Squicked Out by choices that other people make. So I can't necessarily give full cheerleader Ra Ras, but I can say "I support you in your choice and hope it works out as well as possible for you."
I think that's as much as we can expect from people who are coming from a very different ethical basis. We have to give them the freedom to disagree with us without taking it personally.
(Royal "we", royal "you")
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 06:47 pm (UTC)It is very hard for me not to take personally a view that says it has rights over my body. That's where all my disconnect comes from.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-07 04:31 am (UTC)"Pro-choice" means supporting women making choices about their own bodies, whatever those may be - having the child, aborting, adoption, whatever. You seem to think that a woman who is in support of women making these choices (and therefore "pro-choice") but who would not choose an abortion for herself is somehow your moral enemy, somehow not "pro-choice" enough. For someone who's pro-choice, as you claim, you seem to get quite prickly when someone's choices are different from yours (being supportive of women choosing for themselves but not wanting abortion for themselves). I really think you're not seeing the forest for the trees. You're perceiving enemies in your own pro-choice camp on the basis of semantics and getting mighty aggressive and holier-than-thou about it, instead of identifying who the true enemies of women's right to choose really are.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-07 04:25 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-08 08:23 pm (UTC)How does, "I support your right to an abortion but I wouldn't choose one for myself" have anything to do with your body?
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-08 08:29 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-09 12:57 am (UTC)You are perfectly free to try and explain it to me. You are also perfectly free to decide it's not worth the effort to continue the conversation. Either way, it's pretty much up to you.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-09 01:04 am (UTC)My threads got crossed, but by the time this part happened, I was too discouraged to even try anymore.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-09 01:11 am (UTC)I think that's as much as we can expect from people who are coming from a very different ethical basis. We have to give them the freedom to disagree with us without taking it personally.
Which, to me, meant we were talking about something wider than the "but" camp, into the whole "pro-life" arena. And I was thinking about those people when I said that a group of people who think that they know what is best for my body (abortion is bad, you're killing babies, etc) I DO take personally because it's about MY person.
How does, "I support your right to an abortion but I wouldn't choose one for myself" have anything to do with your body?
Right, so now you have no idea what I'm talking about because this isn't what I'm talking about anymore.
There you go.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-09 05:43 pm (UTC)I was still talking about the "but" camp as having a different ethical basis but still respecting our rights to make our own decisions for ourselves.
I don't equate them with the anti-choice anti-sex viewpoint at all.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-09 05:45 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-09 05:44 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 05:46 pm (UTC)To me, that *is* being fully supportive. It becomes non-supportive only when someone says "I support your decision to have an abortion", and then tries to talk you out of it/expresses disapproval or disappointment etc.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 05:53 pm (UTC)Unplanned pregnancy, no matter the outcome, is a tough thing!
No doubt about that. That's not really what I'm talking about when I talk about the "I'm pro-choice but..." camp. To me saying "I'd never do it though" is expressing disapproval.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 06:34 pm (UTC)My POV is that I don't think the "but" always or necessarily expresses/means disapproval. There are a lot of things I wouldn't do that I don't disapprove of other people doing.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-07 06:31 pm (UTC)I think it gets tricky, too, in that there has been such a stigma of pain, shame, consequences, and moral quagmire surrounding the idea of abortion.
Women who have abortions are "bad." Women who have abortions may "never have another baby." Women who have abortions are "sluts" or "welfare mothers"[1] or "will regret it."
I feel sometimes that the but means what you say, but (ha!) esp. in the case of "I've never had an abortion but..." as in "I've never lost someone close to me but..."
The "but" becomes empathic.
But (again, ha!) sometimes people do use it to create a sense of superiority. "*I* would never have an abortion but..."
For me, I've never had an abortion, but I can't say I won't ever have one. Because I *don't* know what life will bring, and I *don't* know if it would be necessary at some point down the road.
[1] and then those same people stand, in shock, when they realize that the highest percentages of abortions in the US come from white single mothers in their 20s. *gasp!*[2]
[2] And I don't know if this statistic is still valid, but as of five years ago, the highest percentage of "welfare mothers" in the US were white single mothers in their 20s. *double gasp!*
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-07 07:16 pm (UTC)The "but" becomes empathic.
But (again, ha!) sometimes people do use it to create a sense of superiority. "*I* would never have an abortion but..."
Exactly. Whether or not the "but" is empathic or disapproving depends entirely on the words that come after the "but". That's why I try very hard not to throw up a mental barrier as soon as I hear the word "but" in this and similar contexts.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-08 01:50 am (UTC)but not all options are created equal. that's also important to realize. some options would require immense sacrifices, and i feel i have no right to impose them on others.
i am fine with my friends saying "i support your decision, but..." -- they're my friends, not my cheerleaders or my sycophants. they're entitled to their own feelings, to their own squicks. what matters is that they support me. what also matters is that they're honest with me. i don't want unconditional support. i want considered support.
you don't sound very pro-choice to me when it comes to choices other than abortion. are you sure that's how you want to come across?
abortion is an ethical dilemma. i don't find it easy to have a clear opinion on it at all, and so i'm in the "i'm pro-choice, but..." camp. i am generally against killing sapient life; i am against war, against the death penalty -- not a pacifist though (i consider killing justifiable under certain circumstances). a fetus may not be a person, but it's a human life. i can't draw firm lines in other places than in that one, because when does personality start? i have no idea. i don't like the government to tell people what to do with their bodies (i am also pro-assisted suicide), but abortion isn't just about the body of the mother, it's about the body of the fetus. and since it can't speak for itself, well, somebody else has to. and so the "but...".
i am "pro-choice, but not for myself, and i wish you didn't (have to) either", instead of "pro-life, but not rabid about it" because i don't want to be under the same umbrella with those wingers who really just want to control people's sex lives. they don't deserve the "pro-life" label because they're not pro-sex education, pro-heath-care-for-all, pro-childcare-for-all, and any number of other things that i like to see my society provide for people to grow up healthy, well-provided-for, and happy.
and yes, i've had to make that choice myself.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-08 03:22 am (UTC)I hope you have read my other comments in this post where I say that pro-choice means that you have the choice to have an abortion, a child, ten children, not that third child, etc etc.
a fetus may not be a person, but it's a human life
As I've said elsewhere, this is a fundamental difference in opinion, and will shape how you feel about every other part of the discussion. I don't think it is a human life, so that makes things very distinct for me, in the oppostie direction.
i am also pro-assisted suicide
As am I. Interesting that didn't really come up here, but totally could have.
i don't want to be under the same umbrella with those wingers who really just want to control people's sex lives
That's pretty much what it boils down to. The anti-choice camp isn't really about the babies, or they'd be reforming welfare, education, healcare, etc etc (as you mention). They want to control women's reproductive choices, whittling them down to nothing.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 04:28 am (UTC)If, OTOH, they are of the "my POV is the only right choice, anybody who thinks otherwise is morally deficient and should be shot" school of thought then that becomes more tricky.
Particularly when they try to shoot you. Friends don't train firearms on friends.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 04:54 am (UTC)If it's not, then if you changed your mind, you'd have to dump all your friends.
Which I'm sure some people might do, and others wouldn't.
I was pretty pro-life when I was, oh, twelve or so. But everything was really abstract at that age. For some people (the good liberals?) it always is, and a good friend is someone you can argue well with. I remember my horror, as an undergrad, when I discovered that some campus political hacks of diametrically opposite stripes were actually very friendly with each other when it wasn't time to explain to an audience why the other was an idiot.
And, uh, by the way ...
Date: 2006-08-07 02:00 am (UTC)Re: And, uh, by the way ...
Date: 2006-08-09 05:50 pm (UTC)Re: And, uh, by the way ...
Date: 2006-08-10 05:32 am (UTC)I get a kick out of these. I have more in mind. :)
Re: And, uh, by the way ...
Date: 2006-08-11 01:50 pm (UTC)Is present for you!
Date: 2006-08-11 07:33 pm (UTC)And another one!
Date: 2006-08-11 07:55 pm (UTC)Re: And another one!
Date: 2006-08-11 08:15 pm (UTC)Re: Is present for you!
Date: 2006-08-11 08:36 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 04:55 am (UTC)you can't change anyone's mind who doesn't want it changed.
That being said, I've had wonderful debates with my very pro-life, very conservative father (who, ps, is not nearly as conservative as he pretends to be), and I respect his opinion because it's his opinion. He's entitled to it, he's mulled it over and thought heavily on it, and, here's the kicker, he therefore doesn't blindly subscribe to a way of thinking.
Those are the people I have problems with: the ones who are pro-life (or pro-choice, or anti-feminist, or feminist, or what have you) because basically, someone told them to be.
I respect people who have actually thought out the issue, from both sides, and come to a conclusion.
I was pro-life until I read The Worst of Times, and began to consider what life was like when abortion was illegal.
I wish we lived in a world in which every person was wanted, and could be cared for, and provided for, but we don't live in that world. I mulled over my thoughts, and came to be pro-choice.
I can't disrespect someone who mulled it over and decided on the other side.
Zealots scare the holy bejeesus out of me, regardless of what they subscribe to, whether they're "on my side" or not.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 05:22 am (UTC)Okay. However, if you are pro-choice, and the other side is anti-choice, the other side wants rights over your body. That, to me, is as big a moral no-no as abortion is to them. That seems insurmountable to me.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 05:29 am (UTC)You're right, of course. I can't argue with that. BUT I do find that the majority of people I am friends with that are anti-abortion are anti-abortion on principle (i.e. against abortion) rather than fighting for any legal claims over women's bodies.
I guess perhaps the ones I know are pro-life (anti-abortion) for themselves, but perhaps not anti-choice?
The question was posed pro-life versus pro-choice. I know people who are pro-life but not anti-choice.
Does that make sense?
i.e. I'm not friends with people who protest outside of clinics and write down license plate numbers and harass people who work at the clinic.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 05:38 am (UTC)I will look it up in the morning, but as far as I remember, early anti-choicers paid a marketing firm for that whole "pro-life" spin. The leaders of this movement are also pro-war and for the death peanalty. I don't see the "life" in that.
That all sounds kinda hostile, but you know I'm not mad atacha! I'm just being my political self. :P
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 01:51 pm (UTC)Gotcha. I just don't know anyone like that personally. When I consider my pro-life/anti-choice friends, I consider ppl who have a different opinion than me, but don't try to force that opinion down my throat (or legally on my body).
I will look it up in the morning, but as far as I remember, early anti-choicers paid a marketing firm for that whole "pro-life" spin. The leaders of this movement are also pro-war and for the death peanalty. I don't see the "life" in that.
My mother and I have talked about this conflict, as she is a bit more rabid anti-choice and also pro-death penalty and pro-Iraq (*shakes head*). Kudos to her, she actually reconsidered her stance on capital punishment because of this very conundrum.
That all sounds kinda hostile, but you know I'm not mad atacha! I'm just being my political self. :P
*grin* this clarification made me very happy, simply because you're a darling to do this. I know you're not mad at me, and believe me, I feel like you're one of about 3 people in the world I could have a conversation like this with and still be friends after :)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 05:30 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 05:39 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 01:52 pm (UTC):)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 02:50 pm (UTC)*nods* to Panic Girl for her brilliant iced coffee recipe.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 02:46 pm (UTC)To me, being anti-choice means that someone wants to actively restrict my ability to get an abortion, and that's something I won't stand for.
Pro-life, ideally, means that while you dislike abortion and wish that it were not necessary, you recognize and respect a woman's right to choose. It means you fight for education and access to sexual education and birth control.
You know this already, but my foot is firmly in the pro-choice camp and always has been.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 04:31 pm (UTC)What happens, though, when those things fail? Because they do fail. Because two people make a child, making it even more difficult for things to be "perfect." I do find that "Abortion shouldn't ever happen so here's other stuff to do" a bit naive, and a bit dangerous. Unwanted pregnancy has always, and will always happen. When it does, are we going to say "Well tough, your birth control failed, stupid you, here's your kid!" We can't do that, and we have to, have to, leave the options for safe and legal abortion open.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 05:02 pm (UTC)Women do have abortions they don't want because is there aren't enough resources available for them to keep their child in anything but the most minimal conditions. The choice is often an abortion or a life of poverty, and that's not exactly a "choice" either.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 05:14 pm (UTC)That's why I don't trust a lot of anti-choice rhetoric either, because it's all about the fetus, but ignores the actual child, and the mother.
Thing is, anti-choice people take that argument and run with it. When I got pregnant, I was the perfect candidate to keep that child, by that reasoning. I has some university education, I had a job, I had parents who would have supported me and that child, I live in a country that has comparatively good social programs. I chose abortion because I did not want a child, pure and simple. For a lot of people, that's a "selfish" and "wrong" choice. I'll agree that it was selfish, I won't agree that it was wrong. It was my choice, and I made it, for no other reason that I didn't want a child.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 06:52 pm (UTC)And here the English instructor becomes a bit English instructory.
I usually start my intro to lit course with "Hills Like White Elephants" by Hemingway which is, in my reading, about abortion. And when I tell my students that unwanted pregnancies have *always* been a fact of life, and aborting an unwanted pregnancy has *always* been a fact of life, they freak out.
They just can't believe women in the Victorian era would wear their corsets too tight in hope of aborting a pregnancy.
They just can't believe that women in the middle ages took herbs and such in hope of aborting a pregnancy.
There was never really a backlash against this until the 20th century, when laws went into effect. Then the proverbial shit hit the fan.
I don't consider myself a "pro-choice but" person, but (and there it is) I do wish we lived in a world in which every person was able to exist in a comfortable, humane manner (education, food, shelter, clothes, etc.). But we don't live in that world, and who the hell am I to tell a 15 year old girl, or a 40 year old woman, what she can and can't do to make life better for her, or for her existing children, or for her invalid parents, or for the thousands of reasons women get abortions?
My best friend has a solution: every rabid pro-lifer (and I'm talking the gun-toting, license-plate-copying ones) who wants to stop abortion should have to support a child that would have otherwise been aborted. For the rest of her life. Not raise them; just support them.
And I still haven't seen Citizen Ruth. Just sayin'.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 06:59 pm (UTC)I've always thought that too. ;)
There was never really a backlash against this until the 20th century, when laws went into effect. Then the proverbial shit hit the fan.
Yup. BTW, the stuff I was going to look up for, I haven't because I've been responding to people all day. HA! Anyway, if you haven't already, read Backlash by Susan Faludi. That's where that info is, but the whole book is so unbelievably worthwhile.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 09:47 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-07 06:23 pm (UTC)*scribbles that down*
Of course, the last time I talked Oedipus in my class (in conjunction with Muriel Rukeyser's "Myth"), I kept pronouncing it "O-dip-pee-us". As in, I smushed together Oedipus and Odysseus. When I finally realized what I was doing, I sent them all home early.
It was that kind of day :)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 05:40 am (UTC)I think what it comes down to is understanding why the other feels the way they do - but respectfully thinking that they're full of shit.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 07:51 am (UTC)Thanks for saying in one sentence, what I was trying to say in many paragraphs!
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 09:52 am (UTC)If the friendship is based on little more than common interests/circumstances, then it may be possible for both parties to share in company/activities without the subject ever coming up, but those people would be activitie's buddies and not really friends.
Most of the time the answer tends to be no because it is often too difficult to maintain a close friendship between two people whose core values are different.
One can only argue an issue with a friend so many times before reaching the point of diminished returns.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 01:35 pm (UTC)but pro-life, i wouldn't get an abortion and i wish you wouldn't either but if you do i won't publish your license plate on the internet and i'll still invite you to potlucks, sure.
I definitely have at least one friend in this category (and I think two.) They're afraid to 'come out' to our general group though for fear of losing all their friends.
I personally can't get behind violence of any kind to achieve political ends, but if someone makes an intelligent argument (which I believe can be made even though I don't agree) without degrading my POV, then I can extend mutual respect and probably my friendship.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 04:53 pm (UTC)I've had friends who were afraid to tell me about their abortion because they thought I would look down on them for it.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 11:58 pm (UTC)Wow. You totally don't give me that vibe AT all. Women are so primed to be judged at every opportunity that I feel we continually don't know who to open up to. Might that have been it?
The major issue IMO is that there are many more than two opinions being forced into a 'black and white' argument. Historically, little comes from polar arguments except suspicion and violence, yk? I'm not surprised if it has a whole lot of people afraid to out their own decisions. That stinks. :/
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-08 08:31 pm (UTC)I wouldn't be surprised. The people I'm thinking of did tell me eventually (which is how I know now) but I think that came about as they got to know me better. I have no idea how many women I know still prefer to keep their histories and their opinions private.
The major issue IMO is that there are many more than two opinions being forced into a 'black and white' argument. Historically, little comes from polar arguments except suspicion and violence, yk? I'm not surprised if it has a whole lot of people afraid to out their own decisions. That stinks. :/
I totally agree with you here.
can I jump in? It's a two-parter!
Date: 2006-08-06 01:42 pm (UTC)First - sorry for the background bit I'm going to give you, but it is necessary. See, I grew up in a sheltered environment, both because my parents felt that they should protect their children from life and because we had moved when I was almost 10 to a rural southeast Kentucky small town where everyone was white, baptist, right-wing conservatives. As a consequence, when I was young I was conservative, but strangely not in those fierce convictions I saw on either side of the fence. I was rebellious (maybe coming from living in the city earlier, where I had been heading down a thuggish path), ultimately rejecting my beliefs because I didn't know enough to form justifiable opinions. I was - and often times still can be - incredibly naive, and I wanted to experience everything life had to offer, the best and the worst. So life pretty much didn't begin for me until I was 21, when I moved out into the city on my own, far away from family and home as possible.
So here's what I knew about abortion:
- Men don't have a say in it. It's not a man's body, not a man's decision, not his place to say shit.
- Life begins at conception, so abortion terminates life.
- Pro-life means you have to choose life and be against abortion.
- Pro-choice means you have to choose abortion and be against pro-lifers.
- There's a lot of "I understand where you're coming from, but respectfully, I think you're full of shit." This is the one that troubled me from both sides, because how can you be respectful when you say someone's full of shit?
Just to be clear: my views? Conflicted. Taught that they didn't count anyway. The whole non-uterus-having thing. The conception = life part has always haunted me, though. Why? Men go out to the battle field and take lives all the time. My mother ended her mother's life because she was never going to wake up, she was brain dead, and she was dying slowly and painfully. Are those instances so different? People take lives. Then they either learn to live and love again, or they're haunted. My own opinion about aborton has been based on my being deeply romantic.
Re: can I jump in? It's a two-parter!
Date: 2006-08-06 01:46 pm (UTC)- A coworker of mine had an abortion. First person I ever knew who had one. She spent some time after that in terrible grief. She would call the father - another coworker - constantly, in the break room, in front of everyone, sobbing into the phone, calling him names, screaming. As for myself, well I have to be honest and say I wanted to see how it would effect my views. We would still talk just like always - not about abortion, of course - and it was still pleasant, we were still nice to each other even though I was conflicted about my views on abortion - well, she probably still was, too. I would talk to her and I would think about how if abortion is the termination of life, was I talking to a killer? She was the same person as she was before. There wasn't anything different. No scarlet letter, no muderous rampages. She grieved, she moved on best she could, found a new man, married him, had his baby.
- When I was 23 my girlfriend, my first real love, and oh I fell for her hard, she was taken into an alley, beaten nearly to death and raped by four guys. Twice. If she had become pregnant because of that, I would have stood by her choice, whichever it would have been. Because I loved her.
- If my wife becomes pregnant with our offspriing I would express my hope that she would keep it. She would anyway. She wants to have a baby. But if she wouldn't, I can say that would be hurt. How she would feel and how it would effect our marriage, our relationship, is too hypothetical and I can not speculate. That's just my view. If anyone feels it's irrelevant, that I'm unenlightened, weak, hypocritical, full of shit (respectfully or otherwise), or ultimately displeased, they wouldn't be the first or last, so no harm done.
Re: can I jump in? It's a two-parter!
Date: 2006-08-06 01:52 pm (UTC)Okay, there's a third part
Date: 2006-08-06 02:23 pm (UTC)Re: Okay, there's a third part
Date: 2006-08-07 09:25 pm (UTC)Re: can I jump in? It's a two-parter!
Date: 2006-08-06 04:44 pm (UTC)Re: can I jump in? It's a two-parter!
Date: 2006-08-06 04:42 pm (UTC)That's the part I've always found interesting about the entire debate. There always seems to be such emphasis on protecting the fetus, but it's life beomes so much less valuable, or at least so much less noted once it's born. (Speaking about the vocal and radical anti-abortion stance of course. Individuals have views that are so much more complex than that.)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 02:49 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 03:31 pm (UTC)I completely agree. However, I am often faced with a personal complication to this very thing.
Sometimes, I feel like I have to persuade someone that her beliefs are wrong. Take the Iraq war, for example. I believe it is wrong for many reasons, and I feel it necessary to explain to people who disagree with me why I think they're wrong.
I worry, then, that I am suffering under the same misconceptions that many pro-life (or pro-capital punishment, etc.) people do: trying to "fix" someone else's beliefs.
i.e. I worry that I end up lecturing others on the wrongness of their beliefs, despite the fact that I get upset when they do it to me.
That make sense?
I guess I worry sometimes that I'm a hypocrite.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 03:35 pm (UTC)Cliche as this may sound, I try to stick to statements such as 'I believe this because of X", and stay way from telling people what they ought to do or believe.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 06:55 pm (UTC)Absolutely. And I try very hard to remember that.
I think that sometimes, I can't fathom someone's lack of enlightenment. If I meet someone who is racist, or homophobic, I feel the need to "fix" their beliefs. I try to do this by explaining how I feel the way I do, and it's worked sometimes, and sometimes it hasn't.
I know these issues are completely different from abortion, but it's where I find I try to "fix" things the most.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 05:45 pm (UTC)On the abortion topic, being pro-choice isn't about trying to change someone's mind, it's about letting them do whatever the hell they want with their body. If you don't want an abortion, fine, no one will force you to have one! :P
With the war, ugh. That's tough, and I can totally see how you get stopped up...
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 06:57 pm (UTC)Exactly. I had a friend in college who dropped our feminist theory course. When I asked why, she said, and I'm quoting as near as possible here, "f**k those feminist bitches and their society without men. I don't need that bullshit in my life."
And I was shocked. Utterly shocked. And I wanted to tell her, "well, let's see: give back that abortion you had, and then stop wearing pants, having a checking account, going to college, and living alone. And then we'll see what kind of feminist bitches they are then."
But I didn't say that. And I regret it to this day.
With the war, ugh. That's tough, and I can totally see how you get stopped up...
And I live in very conservative Texas. Remember, this is where I got asked in class, "Why do you hate white people?"
!!!!!
*shakes head*
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 07:01 pm (UTC)I always loved that one too. For the reasons you mentioned and also, HELLO STRAIGHT PERSON HERE! Just because I want equality does not mean I don't like men! Please people, a little perspective! ;)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 02:51 pm (UTC)Only if one of you feels the need to constantly bring up that topic.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 04:49 pm (UTC)I used to fundraise for The United Way, an umbrella charity here in Canada. I would talk to people who would flat out say that they won't donate because The United Way funds Planned Parenthood, and they are pro-life.
It doesn't come up every day, but it does come up.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 09:41 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-08 08:34 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-08 09:59 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-09 12:27 am (UTC)Although I've recently started following the "don't talk about it" strategy on a completely unrelated subject. So although I'd like to be able to agree to disagree, maybe that's not always possible.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-11 10:11 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 03:17 pm (UTC)I have a point of view about this issue and it is my own for my own reasons. I am pro-choice because it is my body and I am anti-abortion in some cases when it comes to my body. I have no right to impose my own personal views on what other people do with their bodies. Therefore, I am friends with everyone as long as they respect that I have a right to think differently and that I am also open to differing points of view. There is neither right nor wrong...it's all perspective and perspective is individual and should not be the basis on who I like or don't like.
It's like not being friends with someone because of the colour of their skin or their cultural background, it's irrational. I don't think a difference of beliefs, whether they be cultural or religious, should make a difference. It's all about what an individual friendship is based upon and basically I think it comes down to respect of how another person lives their life or respect of how that person treats you.
just my rambling two cents:)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 03:39 pm (UTC)Hrm. Yes and no. It depends what the difference of beliefs entails. I can't be friends with someone who firmly believes that black people are inferior to white people. I can't be friends with someone who thinks that being queer is disgusting and unnatural.
I can be and am friends with someone who is Christian even though I'm not. I can be friends with people who have kids even though I don't have any and never will.
The details make all the difference.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 03:43 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 03:44 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 03:44 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 04:38 pm (UTC)Meh, you can change your mind, but you can't change your skin. :P
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 05:40 pm (UTC)You will never share or have the exact reasons and histories behind the decision of what happens to your body. There are so many factors to each individual that make a person form an opinion. I like to think that although our minds might change...they are our own minds to change and no one can tell us why we have to change them. That is our individual decision in everything.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 05:42 pm (UTC)Yup, which is pro-choice. ;)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 05:45 pm (UTC)If they disrespect you because of your point of view, ie. make fun of you or bully you, then that is a different matter.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 05:50 pm (UTC)For most things this works. Like if someone is Catholic, and I'm an atheist, we can certainly be friends, and agree to disagree on the existence or absence of God. You like lima beans and I don't. Fair enough.
For this issue though, it's very had for me to feel respected by someone who wants agency over my body. They can say "Well yeah I guess abortion is okay BUT you shouldn't have had to do it" well yeah I did have to do it. Many women have to do it for a lot of reasons. Anyone thinking that they know better what I should do with my body, is not my friend.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 05:59 pm (UTC)If they say "Oh abortion is a tough thing to go through" fine. It's the "Abortion is okay BUT you could have kept it/ gave it up for adoption/whatever" isn't supportive to me. It's second guessing me.
I'm afraid I'm not making that distinction clear, here and elsewhere.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 06:03 pm (UTC)Yeah, that's not being a friend to you. That's actually something that I find really rude and disrespectful and not at all friendship-material.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 07:00 pm (UTC)And, of course, it's assuming that every pregnancy is perfect and cost-free and completely easy on the body.
Which just isn't true.
I'm adopted, so many people have told me, "hey, at least your mother didn't abort you."
Sure, that made sense when I was 13, and had never thought about the ramifications of laws on my body, but now, I just say, "rather, I'm thankful she took the time to find a good family to place me with."
Because she did that. And I'm grateful.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 07:02 pm (UTC)I am too, and I've had that exact experience. (See WAY above)
Where I was born, you weren't placed with anyone, it was lottery really. My folks were next on the list. Which was excellent because they are fucking fantastic. :)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-07 06:24 pm (UTC)Where I was born, you weren't placed with anyone, it was lottery really. My folks were next on the list. Which was excellent because they are fucking fantastic. :)
I love that we love our parents :)
So many other adopted children I've met have had issues. We rock the casbah, apparently :)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-11 10:16 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 06:00 pm (UTC)But as an individual opinion where I am conversing with someone in my group who thinks they know better what I should do with my body....hmmm..you bring up a good point here.
The thing is, are they telling me I have no right to an abortion if I needed it? Are they saying I am the lowest of the low for having one? Then.....they're not my friend.
If they simply feel that they wouldn't choose abortion for themselves, then they are still my friend if they respect my right for having one.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-08 02:16 am (UTC)so i have friends who cover a wide range of the spectrum of beliefs. and yup, some are anti-abortion and some are pro-choice, some of them would never have an abortion, and some have had one -- but none of them bomb abortion clinics, or have casual abortions instead of birth control, or kill others in wars of aggression, because those are not things that delight me, and i view such actions as representing large enough character flaws that other traits are unlikely to make up for it. i don't want to be close with such people.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 09:59 pm (UTC)Strangely, we agree to disagree. Sometimes we even discuss and debate it. But the rest of her friends are in agreement that if any of us ever ends up getting an abortion for any reason, we just don't tell her.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-11 08:41 pm (UTC)I would be unable to restrain myself from finding that ironic.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-06 10:39 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-07 10:53 am (UTC)i'm pro choice. but i don't think a fetus is "a part of the mother". that's not logical. it's a fetus. it's a blob of cells, something like a tadpole, something that's almost a baby, or a baby, depending on how long it's been in there. it gets my back up when people say "part of the mother", because it's illogical. and i don't think that all abortion is morally neutral, either.
an early abortion is, as far as i'm concerned, about morally equivalent to killing a mouse in your kitchen. yeah, it'd be nice if you could avoid killing the mouse, but it's not the end of the world, and leaving the mouse be would result in hundreds of mice overrunning your house, so it's not like you have no reason. i've never had mice, because i don't leave food out, or have a house with lots of gaps for mice to get into the kitchen, so i've never needed to kill mice, but i don't mind that other people use mousetraps.
a very late abortion is morally equivalent to killing a baby. but there are circumstances in which that's still the least-bad choice. i'm glad i don't have to decide what they are.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-09 04:50 pm (UTC)I'm a little late to the party, but I feel the need to chime in.
I'm pro-choice, extremely so. I work for an abortion provider and every day, I assist women in getting their pregnancies terminated. I am also one of the few people who don't differentiate between early abortion and later trimester ones. It's all the same to me. My best friend of the past seventeen years is incredibly pro-life.
Our worst arguements have been about the fact that her taste in music is absolutely atrocious. And I talk about my job around her, like people do, every time I see her. In great detail.
We've had our abortion debates, but they've been friendly across the board. To us, it really is just a difference of opinion.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-09 07:42 pm (UTC)Since I've had two abortions, I tend not to let people who are anti-choice into my inner life. Many want to legislate their morality. I don't think I could handle it if one of my friends helped pass legislation that would prevent me from getting a third abortion, if I needed one.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-11 11:06 am (UTC)However, sometimes the person's view on abortion *is* indicative of an actual underlying worldview that may make the person... unappealing as a friend.
Personally, I have a harder time with people who are "radically pro-choice" than I do with pro-lifers. I mean those who insist that there is *no* moral dilemma because to them the life and the feelings of the fetus -- at any stage -- have no value at all. This is a callous disregard for life and feelings. It squicks me no end.
Even clinic bombers are less squicky to me than that.