>I disagree with that statement. I never believe that all >that is needed is an apology.
I didn't say 'need'. I said 'want'. If you don't believe that an apology is sufficient, then what do you perceive the other person needs to no longer feel hurt? If the person you've hurt says "All I require is an honest apology", why not take them at their word and spare yourself the stress of second guessing? Again, you may be making these situations much harder on yourself.
I keep thinking that we are talking across each other here...
I'm not talking about hurt. I'm talking about damage.
It's like the difference between a bruise and a broken bone. OK, sure. All you might say that you want is an apology. However, if I really do give a flying fuck about the other person, a call to an ambulance might just be in order as well.
>When you are having a hypoglycemic episode, is "sorry" going > to help? Or do you need food?
A hypoglycemic episode is not something anyone does to me. It just happens if I don't eat, and I make it my responsibility to make sure I do eat regularly.
I used hypoglycemia as an example because I figured it was an experience that I could present that you could relate to -- it requires something more than just platitudes and expressions of regret to fix it.
"Sorry" don't do shit to repair damage that's been done. It doesn't repair broken bones or smashed china. And there are things that people do to each other that "sorry" won't fix.
I agree with you in that we are talking across each other here. I think we're talking about the same thing, but in very different ways and from distinctly different angles.
"Sorry" don't do shit to repair damage that's been done. It doesn't repair broken bones or smashed china. And there are things that people do to each other that "sorry" won't fix.
Agreed. I never said "sorry" fixed anything. What it can do, for me at least, is open the door to communication, understanding, and hopefully, healing. "Sorry" can be a means to a valuable end, and I will not undermine the importance of that. You have to start _somewhere_.
I think what I'm seeing here, if you'll allow me to hazard a guess, is that "sorry" doesn't do much for you when you're hurt and/or damaged, and you're assuming, by extension, that it also does little for other people. Can you step back and see why "sorry" might hold an importance for others that it does not hold for you?
If "sorry" is not what you want or need, then what else works for you? What do you require? I'm asking so that I can better understand how to relate to you and to other people who's reactions to "sorry" are not the same as mine.
And yes, there are absolutely some things that people do to each other that "sorry" cannot fix. That nothing can fix.My apologies if it seems like I'm touting "I'm sorry" as a universal bandaid for all hurts and damages. That is not my intent. My intent is to explain that if someone has hurt me, the best thing they can do (barring extreme situations) is to approach me with an honest and sincere apology. Does the damage end with the apology? No. But a dialogue has been opened, and I can't help but view that as good.
I agree with you in that we are talking across each other here. I think we're talking about the same thing, but in very different ways and from distinctly different angles.
And I think we are talking about completely different things. Sorry, but I do. You keep referring to hurt, and I keep talking about injury.
If "sorry" is not what you want or need, then what else works for you? What do you require? I'm asking so that I can better understand how to relate to you and to other people who's reactions to "sorry" are not the same as mine.
First aid.
I'm being glib, but I've been using physical examples all along, and those aren't just metaphors. I've fallen off a fucking cliff ferchrisakes, I didn't ask the cliff to apologize for hurting me. I didn't ask the guy who raped me to apologize. (Although I might have asked him to die if I thought he would do it.) I'm never going to get an apology from all the various things that killed all those old friends that I will never see again.
And I know I'm beginning to get extreme in my examples, but obviously I'm having a hard time explaining what I mean, so the rediculous examples are coming out in an attempt to get my point across.
And I apologize right here and now for feeling this way, because I know it's horribly dismissive, but every time you respond to my talking about "hurt" by saying, "when somebody hurts my feelings", my immediate gut-level reaction is to think that this is reasoning that could only come from somebody who has never been beaten up.
And I think the conversation had digressed from the original topic anyway -- way back when I was grousing about fragility, I was thinking about how when I was a little kid, my playmates would hit me with a stick and I would laugh, and then I would punch them and they would cry. And that it gets to be a pain in tbe ass sometimes that I forget that when somebody hits me with a stick, I still have to be freakin' careful how hard I hit them back.
However, in the circumstances to which I have specifically been referring, sorry has it's place -- and it's something that one might say after one staunches the bleeding.
And even so, once I've been stabbed, no matter how sorry the person is, I'm unlikely to want to hang around with them much if they continue to carry knives on their person.
You keep referring to hurt, and I keep talking about injury.
The fact was never really made explicitly clear until now, but it does account for a lot of the disconnect we’ve been having during this discussion.
I am not talking about physical damage or injury, in any way, shape or form. I never have been. All of my comments have been referring, specifically and explicitly, to emotional damage. Seen within that context, your comments make more sense, and I hope some of mine make more sense to you.
And I apologize right here and now for feeling this way, because I know it's horribly dismissive, but every time you respond to my talking about "hurt" by saying, "when somebody hurts my feelings", my immediate gut-level reaction is to think that this is reasoning that could only come from somebody who has never been beaten up.
Yes, my reasoning does come from someone who has not been beaten up in a very long time. I can only comment from my own experience or lack thereof.
It’s been two decades since I’ve been beaten up, and I’m not suggesting that being beaten up and being hurt emotionally are in any way comparable. Maybe it would help if I clarified what I mean. I’m not talking about hurt feelings in an “you called me a name on the playground” kind of way. I’m talking about a serious betrayal or disappointment in someone. I’m talking about someone who attacks you on a very primal level, betrays your trust. That kind of hurt.
If someone beat the crap out of me, raped me, threw me off a cliff, injured someone I care about, then “sorry” wouldn’t do a damn thing to help. On that point, I agree with you completely. Just to be absolutely clear, at no point during this discussion was I ever trying to imply that being hurt physically and being hurt emotionally are the same and should be handled as such. I apologize if you felt that I was trivializing your arguments in any way.
And even so, once I've been stabbed, no matter how sorry the person is, I'm unlikely to want to hang around with them much if they continue to carry knives on their person.
Agreed. Forgiving does not mean forgetting. Forgiving can mean “I am no longer angry at you for the situation that just happened, but I’ll be damned if I ever put myself in a similar situation with you again”.
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Re: defining fragility
Date: 2002-10-01 08:17 pm (UTC)>I disagree with that statement. I never believe that all >that is needed is an apology.
I didn't say 'need'. I said 'want'. If you don't believe that an apology is sufficient, then what do you perceive the other person needs to no longer feel hurt? If the person you've hurt says "All I require is an honest apology", why not take them at their word and spare yourself the stress of second guessing? Again, you may be making these situations much harder on yourself.
I keep thinking that we are talking across each other here...
I'm not talking about hurt. I'm talking about damage.
It's like the difference between a bruise and a broken bone. OK, sure. All you might say that you want is an apology. However, if I really do give a flying fuck about the other person, a call to an ambulance might just be in order as well.
>When you are having a hypoglycemic episode, is "sorry" going
> to help? Or do you need food?
A hypoglycemic episode is not something anyone does to me. It just happens if I don't eat, and I make it my responsibility to make sure I do eat regularly.
I used hypoglycemia as an example because I figured it was an experience that I could present that you could relate to -- it requires something more than just platitudes and expressions of regret to fix it.
"Sorry" don't do shit to repair damage that's been done. It doesn't repair broken bones or smashed china. And there are things that people do to each other that "sorry" won't fix.
Re: defining fragility
Date: 2002-10-01 09:14 pm (UTC)"Sorry" don't do shit to repair damage that's been done. It doesn't repair broken bones or smashed china. And there are things that people do to each other that "sorry" won't fix.
Agreed. I never said "sorry" fixed anything. What it can do, for me at least, is open the door to communication, understanding, and hopefully, healing. "Sorry" can be a means to a valuable end, and I will not undermine the importance of that. You have to start _somewhere_.
I think what I'm seeing here, if you'll allow me to hazard a guess, is that "sorry" doesn't do much for you when you're hurt and/or damaged, and you're assuming, by extension, that it also does little for other people. Can you step back and see why "sorry" might hold an importance for others that it does not hold for you?
If "sorry" is not what you want or need, then what else works for you? What do you require? I'm asking so that I can better understand how to relate to you and to other people who's reactions to "sorry" are not the same as mine.
And yes, there are absolutely some things that people do to each other that "sorry" cannot fix. That nothing can fix.My apologies if it seems like I'm touting "I'm sorry" as a universal bandaid for all hurts and damages. That is not my intent. My intent is to explain that if someone has hurt me, the best thing they can do (barring extreme situations) is to approach me with an honest and sincere apology. Does the damage end with the apology? No. But a dialogue has been opened, and I can't help but view that as good.
Re: defining fragility
Date: 2002-10-01 09:51 pm (UTC)And I think we are talking about completely different things. Sorry, but I do. You keep referring to hurt, and I keep talking about injury.
If "sorry" is not what you want or need, then what else works for you? What do you require? I'm asking so that I can better understand how to relate to you and to other people who's reactions to "sorry" are not the same as mine.
First aid.
I'm being glib, but I've been using physical examples all along, and those aren't just metaphors. I've fallen off a fucking cliff ferchrisakes, I didn't ask the cliff to apologize for hurting me. I didn't ask the guy who raped me to apologize. (Although I might have asked him to die if I thought he would do it.) I'm never going to get an apology from all the various things that killed all those old friends that I will never see again.
And I know I'm beginning to get extreme in my examples, but obviously I'm having a hard time explaining what I mean, so the rediculous examples are coming out in an attempt to get my point across.
And I apologize right here and now for feeling this way, because I know it's horribly dismissive, but every time you respond to my talking about "hurt" by saying, "when somebody hurts my feelings", my immediate gut-level reaction is to think that this is reasoning that could only come from somebody who has never been beaten up.
And I think the conversation had digressed from the original topic anyway -- way back when I was grousing about fragility, I was thinking about how when I was a little kid, my playmates would hit me with a stick and I would laugh, and then I would punch them and they would cry. And that it gets to be a pain in tbe ass sometimes that I forget that when somebody hits me with a stick, I still have to be freakin' careful how hard I hit them back.
Re: defining fragility
Date: 2002-10-01 09:57 pm (UTC)The one thing I forgot to say.
"Sorry" does hold a very important role for me.
However, in the circumstances to which I have specifically been referring, sorry has it's place -- and it's something that one might say after one staunches the bleeding.
And even so, once I've been stabbed, no matter how sorry the person is, I'm unlikely to want to hang around with them much if they continue to carry knives on their person.
Re: defining fragility
Date: 2002-10-02 01:04 pm (UTC)The fact was never really made explicitly clear until now, but it does account for a lot of the disconnect we’ve been having during this discussion.
I am not talking about physical damage or injury, in any way, shape or form. I never have been. All of my comments have been referring, specifically and explicitly, to emotional damage. Seen within that context, your comments make more sense, and I hope some of mine make more sense to you.
And I apologize right here and now for feeling this way, because I know it's horribly dismissive, but every time you respond to my talking about "hurt" by saying, "when somebody hurts my feelings", my immediate gut-level reaction is to think that this is reasoning that could only come from somebody who has never been beaten up.
Yes, my reasoning does come from someone who has not been beaten up in a very long time. I can only comment from my own experience or lack thereof.
It’s been two decades since I’ve been beaten up, and I’m not suggesting that being beaten up and being hurt emotionally are in any way comparable. Maybe it would help if I clarified what I mean. I’m not talking about hurt feelings in an “you called me a name on the playground” kind of way. I’m talking about a serious betrayal or disappointment in someone. I’m talking about someone who attacks you on a very primal level, betrays your trust. That kind of hurt.
If someone beat the crap out of me, raped me, threw me off a cliff, injured someone I care about, then “sorry” wouldn’t do a damn thing to help. On that point, I agree with you completely. Just to be absolutely clear, at no point during this discussion was I ever trying to imply that being hurt physically and being hurt emotionally are the same and should be handled as such. I apologize if you felt that I was trivializing your arguments in any way.
And even so, once I've been stabbed, no matter how sorry the person is, I'm unlikely to want to hang around with them much if they continue to carry knives on their person.
Agreed. Forgiving does not mean forgetting. Forgiving can mean “I am no longer angry at you for the situation that just happened, but I’ll be damned if I ever put myself in a similar situation with you again”.