Something that requires more care in handling than say, my own body is something I define as fragile. (IOW, keep it away from direct flames, impaling objects and blunt trauma, but otherwise able to cope with a reasonable amount of wear and tear.)
"something that requires more care in handling than say, my own body "
In that case, a good argument can be made for say, diamond, as fragile by your standards. Or at least it might in light of how much care you show your body.
You're a definite proponent of the "don't force it: get a bigger hammer" school of self maintenance, you know.
In that case, a good argument can be made for say, diamond, as fragile by your standards. Or at least it might in light of how much care you show your body.
Diamonds don't heal. I do.
And I do care for my body. I just happen to know that it doesn't really always need food, sleep or absence of pain and discomfort just because it would really rather prefer it.
You're a definite proponent of the "don't force it: get a bigger hammer" school of self maintenance, you know.
My mother's name for a hammer is an "Irish Screwdriver".
Something that requires more care in handling than say, my own body is something I define as fragile.
That strikes me as a somewhat limiting definition. You are always going to be able to be more forceful with yourself, physically, mentally and emotionally, than you are with other people because you have an innate and highly intimate knowledge of your own boundaries by virtue of living in your own skin.
No matter how well you know someone else, you will never have that first-hand knowledge of their boundaries, issues and emotions, and so your interactions with them will always have to be a bit more considered than your interactions with yourself.
That strikes me as a somewhat limiting definition. You are always going to be able to be more forceful with yourself, physically, mentally and emotionally, than you are with other people because you have an innate and highly intimate knowledge of your own boundaries by virtue of living in your own skin.
Do I? I used the physical self as an example because the boundaries and limitations of a body are constantly changing -- age, health, environment, none of those things are constant. So I constantly find that my limits and abilities change, and I'm constantly testing and re-testing those limits. My recent surgery is a perfect example of that.
Yes, ideally, you do. Everyone does. Using your examples above, you know when your boundaries have changed because you live in your skin. I don't live in your skin, so I only know your boundaries secondhand, and I don't about any changes to them unless you tell me, or if I test them and find them different than I did before.
If I find someone's boundaries have changed, I tread carefully while finding out how and why the changes took place, because I want to be respectful of the person in question. It's not for me to go charging through anyone's boundaries because I'm displeased at finding them there. This is easier said than done, especially when I'm frustrated, but I do try.
Yes, ideally, you do. Everyone does. Using your examples above, you know when your boundaries have changed because you live in your skin. I don't live in your skin, so I only know your boundaries secondhand, and I don't about any changes to them unless you tell me, or if I test them and find them different than I did before.
To repeat, no I don't know my boundaries. Because they do change -- constantly and at a highly variable rate. I don't know that they've changed because I live here, I know that they've changed because they have never stayed the same.
The people who intimidated me 20 years ago aren't a smear on my shoe today. The task that was insurmountable a year ago due to overwhelming depression is a piece of cake today. The place I could walk to without even thinking about three weeks ago is too far away today. The adrenaline rush that I get when a loved one is in danger completely overwhelms a foe that would have crushed me ten minutes ago.
People have been grousing me about me "pushing myself" ever since I got off the operating table, but how the hell am I supposed to know what I am capable of until I try it and fail?
And try it again and fail.
And try it again... and maybe succeed.
If "live" means "know everything about", then I most certainly do not live in my skin. I live in a highly mutable dreamspace.
(And time don't work right neither.)
If I find someone's boundaries have changed, I tread carefully while finding out how and why the changes took place, because I want to be respectful of the person in question. It's not for me to go charging through anyone's boundaries because I'm displeased at finding them there. This is easier said than done, especially when I'm frustrated, but I do try.
Maybe my problem is less that people's boundaries have changed, and more that they haven't.
Anyway, I'm not critiquing people's boundaries or grousing because they have them. I am pretty firmly in favour of enforcing boundaries.
My bitch is only that it oftentimes feels like it's a lot of energy to constantly be checking and re-checking that I am careful enough of other people's needs and I am always terribly shamed and unhappy and wearied when I fuck it up.
Hell, it was only very recently that I finally realized that I really am more resiliant than most people, and that maybe I should start paying attention when other people start complaining about being tired/hungry/uncomfortable/etc.
My bitch is only that it oftentimes feels like it's a lot of energy to constantly be checking and re-checking that I am careful enough of other people's needs and I am always terribly shamed and unhappy and wearied when I fuck it up.
It is a lot of energy, and it does very often feel like a drag. I often ask myself "what will take up more energy - checking people's boundaries first, or repairing misunderstandings and hurt feelings after the fact if I don't check people's boundaries?"
Re: feeling ashamed and unhappy. Do you think that you're being harder on yourself than the people that you hurt are?
I want to give my friends the benefit of doubt, and I don't expect any of them to be perfect. When they hurt me, all I really want is an honest apology, and if needed, to talk about what happened and how to avoid it. Having my feelings acknowledged is a Big Thing for me.
I disagree with that statement. I never believe that all that is needed is an apology.
I didn't say 'need'. I said 'want'. If you don't believe that an apology is sufficient, then what do you perceive the other person needs to no longer feel hurt? If the person you've hurt says "All I require is an honest apology", why not take them at their word and spare yourself the stress of second guessing? Again, you may be making these situations much harder on yourself.
When you are having a hypoglycemic episode, is "sorry" going to help? Or do you need food?
A hypoglycemic episode is not something anyone does to me. It just happens if I don't eat, and I make it my responsibility to make sure I do eat regularly.
If someone hurts me physically, then yes, more than an apology is required. However, people who hurt me rarely do so physically.
If I'm mentally/emotionally hurt, then an apology does help me quite a bit. I see an apology as a meeting place for me and the other person involved to make amends and discuss what went wrong. I try very hard not to hold grudges, and I will always accept an honest apology. To me, an apology says "Your feelings matter to me and I'm sorry I hurt them", and that's always a good place to start a discussion from.
>I disagree with that statement. I never believe that all >that is needed is an apology.
I didn't say 'need'. I said 'want'. If you don't believe that an apology is sufficient, then what do you perceive the other person needs to no longer feel hurt? If the person you've hurt says "All I require is an honest apology", why not take them at their word and spare yourself the stress of second guessing? Again, you may be making these situations much harder on yourself.
I keep thinking that we are talking across each other here...
I'm not talking about hurt. I'm talking about damage.
It's like the difference between a bruise and a broken bone. OK, sure. All you might say that you want is an apology. However, if I really do give a flying fuck about the other person, a call to an ambulance might just be in order as well.
>When you are having a hypoglycemic episode, is "sorry" going > to help? Or do you need food?
A hypoglycemic episode is not something anyone does to me. It just happens if I don't eat, and I make it my responsibility to make sure I do eat regularly.
I used hypoglycemia as an example because I figured it was an experience that I could present that you could relate to -- it requires something more than just platitudes and expressions of regret to fix it.
"Sorry" don't do shit to repair damage that's been done. It doesn't repair broken bones or smashed china. And there are things that people do to each other that "sorry" won't fix.
I agree with you in that we are talking across each other here. I think we're talking about the same thing, but in very different ways and from distinctly different angles.
"Sorry" don't do shit to repair damage that's been done. It doesn't repair broken bones or smashed china. And there are things that people do to each other that "sorry" won't fix.
Agreed. I never said "sorry" fixed anything. What it can do, for me at least, is open the door to communication, understanding, and hopefully, healing. "Sorry" can be a means to a valuable end, and I will not undermine the importance of that. You have to start _somewhere_.
I think what I'm seeing here, if you'll allow me to hazard a guess, is that "sorry" doesn't do much for you when you're hurt and/or damaged, and you're assuming, by extension, that it also does little for other people. Can you step back and see why "sorry" might hold an importance for others that it does not hold for you?
If "sorry" is not what you want or need, then what else works for you? What do you require? I'm asking so that I can better understand how to relate to you and to other people who's reactions to "sorry" are not the same as mine.
And yes, there are absolutely some things that people do to each other that "sorry" cannot fix. That nothing can fix.My apologies if it seems like I'm touting "I'm sorry" as a universal bandaid for all hurts and damages. That is not my intent. My intent is to explain that if someone has hurt me, the best thing they can do (barring extreme situations) is to approach me with an honest and sincere apology. Does the damage end with the apology? No. But a dialogue has been opened, and I can't help but view that as good.
I agree with you in that we are talking across each other here. I think we're talking about the same thing, but in very different ways and from distinctly different angles.
And I think we are talking about completely different things. Sorry, but I do. You keep referring to hurt, and I keep talking about injury.
If "sorry" is not what you want or need, then what else works for you? What do you require? I'm asking so that I can better understand how to relate to you and to other people who's reactions to "sorry" are not the same as mine.
First aid.
I'm being glib, but I've been using physical examples all along, and those aren't just metaphors. I've fallen off a fucking cliff ferchrisakes, I didn't ask the cliff to apologize for hurting me. I didn't ask the guy who raped me to apologize. (Although I might have asked him to die if I thought he would do it.) I'm never going to get an apology from all the various things that killed all those old friends that I will never see again.
And I know I'm beginning to get extreme in my examples, but obviously I'm having a hard time explaining what I mean, so the rediculous examples are coming out in an attempt to get my point across.
And I apologize right here and now for feeling this way, because I know it's horribly dismissive, but every time you respond to my talking about "hurt" by saying, "when somebody hurts my feelings", my immediate gut-level reaction is to think that this is reasoning that could only come from somebody who has never been beaten up.
And I think the conversation had digressed from the original topic anyway -- way back when I was grousing about fragility, I was thinking about how when I was a little kid, my playmates would hit me with a stick and I would laugh, and then I would punch them and they would cry. And that it gets to be a pain in tbe ass sometimes that I forget that when somebody hits me with a stick, I still have to be freakin' careful how hard I hit them back.
However, in the circumstances to which I have specifically been referring, sorry has it's place -- and it's something that one might say after one staunches the bleeding.
And even so, once I've been stabbed, no matter how sorry the person is, I'm unlikely to want to hang around with them much if they continue to carry knives on their person.
You keep referring to hurt, and I keep talking about injury.
The fact was never really made explicitly clear until now, but it does account for a lot of the disconnect we’ve been having during this discussion.
I am not talking about physical damage or injury, in any way, shape or form. I never have been. All of my comments have been referring, specifically and explicitly, to emotional damage. Seen within that context, your comments make more sense, and I hope some of mine make more sense to you.
And I apologize right here and now for feeling this way, because I know it's horribly dismissive, but every time you respond to my talking about "hurt" by saying, "when somebody hurts my feelings", my immediate gut-level reaction is to think that this is reasoning that could only come from somebody who has never been beaten up.
Yes, my reasoning does come from someone who has not been beaten up in a very long time. I can only comment from my own experience or lack thereof.
It’s been two decades since I’ve been beaten up, and I’m not suggesting that being beaten up and being hurt emotionally are in any way comparable. Maybe it would help if I clarified what I mean. I’m not talking about hurt feelings in an “you called me a name on the playground” kind of way. I’m talking about a serious betrayal or disappointment in someone. I’m talking about someone who attacks you on a very primal level, betrays your trust. That kind of hurt.
If someone beat the crap out of me, raped me, threw me off a cliff, injured someone I care about, then “sorry” wouldn’t do a damn thing to help. On that point, I agree with you completely. Just to be absolutely clear, at no point during this discussion was I ever trying to imply that being hurt physically and being hurt emotionally are the same and should be handled as such. I apologize if you felt that I was trivializing your arguments in any way.
And even so, once I've been stabbed, no matter how sorry the person is, I'm unlikely to want to hang around with them much if they continue to carry knives on their person.
Agreed. Forgiving does not mean forgetting. Forgiving can mean “I am no longer angry at you for the situation that just happened, but I’ll be damned if I ever put myself in a similar situation with you again”.
They're pretty good at reminding you when you forget.
Unfortunately, they usually do that by falling to pieces.
I love DUST!
I'm quite taken with them. I can't wait to hear the new album -- they're playing in Harlow on the Thursday before Whitby with Chaos Engine, so I'm planning on being there for the show.
Hey congrats on the unleashing of LD50 onto the world.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
zvi![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2002-09-26 09:27 am (UTC)defining fragility
Date: 2002-09-26 04:45 pm (UTC)Breakage during normal use?
Something that requires more care in handling than say, my own body is something I define as fragile. (IOW, keep it away from direct flames, impaling objects and blunt trauma, but otherwise able to cope with a reasonable amount of wear and tear.)
HA!
Date: 2002-09-26 10:23 pm (UTC)In that case, a good argument can be made for say, diamond, as fragile by your standards. Or at least it might in light of how much care you show your body.
You're a definite proponent of the "don't force it: get a bigger hammer" school of self maintenance, you know.
Re: HA!
Date: 2002-09-27 12:03 pm (UTC)Diamonds don't heal. I do.
And I do care for my body. I just happen to know that it doesn't really always need food, sleep or absence of pain and discomfort just because it would really rather prefer it.
You're a definite proponent of the "don't force it: get a bigger hammer" school of self maintenance, you know.
My mother's name for a hammer is an "Irish Screwdriver".
Re: defining fragility
Date: 2002-09-27 06:10 am (UTC)That strikes me as a somewhat limiting definition. You are always going to be able to be more forceful with yourself, physically, mentally and emotionally, than you are with other people because you have an innate and highly intimate knowledge of your own boundaries by virtue of living in your own skin.
No matter how well you know someone else, you will never have that first-hand knowledge of their boundaries, issues and emotions, and so your interactions with them will always have to be a bit more considered than your interactions with yourself.
Re: defining fragility
Date: 2002-09-27 11:58 am (UTC)Do I? I used the physical self as an example because the boundaries and limitations of a body are constantly changing -- age, health, environment, none of those things are constant. So I constantly find that my limits and abilities change, and I'm constantly testing and re-testing those limits. My recent surgery is a perfect example of that.
Re: defining fragility
Date: 2002-09-27 12:27 pm (UTC)If I find someone's boundaries have changed, I tread carefully while finding out how and why the changes took place, because I want to be respectful of the person in question. It's not for me to go charging through anyone's boundaries because I'm displeased at finding them there. This is easier said than done, especially when I'm frustrated, but I do try.
Re: defining fragility
Date: 2002-09-27 02:35 pm (UTC)To repeat, no I don't know my boundaries. Because they do change -- constantly and at a highly variable rate. I don't know that they've changed because I live here, I know that they've changed because they have never stayed the same.
The people who intimidated me 20 years ago aren't a smear on my shoe today. The task that was insurmountable a year ago due to overwhelming depression is a piece of cake today. The place I could walk to without even thinking about three weeks ago is too far away today. The adrenaline rush that I get when a loved one is in danger completely overwhelms a foe that would have crushed me ten minutes ago.
People have been grousing me about me "pushing myself" ever since I got off the operating table, but how the hell am I supposed to know what I am capable of until I try it and fail?
And try it again and fail.
And try it again... and maybe succeed.
If "live" means "know everything about", then I most certainly do not live in my skin. I live in a highly mutable dreamspace.
(And time don't work right neither.)
If I find someone's boundaries have changed, I tread carefully while finding out how and why the changes took place, because I want to be respectful of the person in question. It's not for me to go charging through anyone's boundaries because I'm displeased at finding them there. This is easier said than done, especially when I'm frustrated, but I do try.
Maybe my problem is less that people's boundaries have changed, and more that they haven't.
Anyway, I'm not critiquing people's boundaries or grousing because they have them. I am pretty firmly in favour of enforcing boundaries.
My bitch is only that it oftentimes feels like it's a lot of energy to constantly be checking and re-checking that I am careful enough of other people's needs and I am always terribly shamed and unhappy and wearied when I fuck it up.
Hell, it was only very recently that I finally realized that I really am more resiliant than most people, and that maybe I should start paying attention when other people start complaining about being tired/hungry/uncomfortable/etc.
Re: defining fragility
Date: 2002-09-30 06:07 pm (UTC)It is a lot of energy, and it does very often feel like a drag. I often ask myself "what will take up more energy - checking people's boundaries first, or repairing misunderstandings and hurt feelings after the fact if I don't check people's boundaries?"
Re: feeling ashamed and unhappy. Do you think that you're being harder on yourself than the people that you hurt are?
I want to give my friends the benefit of doubt, and I don't expect any of them to be perfect. When they hurt me, all I really want is an honest apology, and if needed, to talk about what happened and how to avoid it. Having my feelings acknowledged is a Big Thing for me.
Re: defining fragility
Date: 2002-10-01 10:40 am (UTC)Possibly. I am not terribly patient with people who don't learn from their mistakes.
When they hurt me, all I really want is an honest apology,
I disagree with that statement. I never believe that all that is needed is an apology.
When you are having a hypoglycemic episode, is "sorry" going to help? Or do you need food?
Re: defining fragility
Date: 2002-10-01 03:46 pm (UTC)I didn't say 'need'. I said 'want'. If you don't believe that an apology is sufficient, then what do you perceive the other person needs to no longer feel hurt? If the person you've hurt says "All I require is an honest apology", why not take them at their word and spare yourself the stress of second guessing? Again, you may be making these situations much harder on yourself.
When you are having a hypoglycemic episode, is "sorry" going to help? Or do you need food?
A hypoglycemic episode is not something anyone does to me. It just happens if I don't eat, and I make it my responsibility to make sure I do eat regularly.
If someone hurts me physically, then yes, more than an apology is required. However, people who hurt me rarely do so physically.
If I'm mentally/emotionally hurt, then an apology does help me quite a bit. I see an apology as a meeting place for me and the other person involved to make amends and discuss what went wrong. I try very hard not to hold grudges, and I will always accept an honest apology. To me, an apology says "Your feelings matter to me and I'm sorry I hurt them", and that's always a good place to start a discussion from.
Re: defining fragility
Date: 2002-10-01 08:17 pm (UTC)>I disagree with that statement. I never believe that all >that is needed is an apology.
I didn't say 'need'. I said 'want'. If you don't believe that an apology is sufficient, then what do you perceive the other person needs to no longer feel hurt? If the person you've hurt says "All I require is an honest apology", why not take them at their word and spare yourself the stress of second guessing? Again, you may be making these situations much harder on yourself.
I keep thinking that we are talking across each other here...
I'm not talking about hurt. I'm talking about damage.
It's like the difference between a bruise and a broken bone. OK, sure. All you might say that you want is an apology. However, if I really do give a flying fuck about the other person, a call to an ambulance might just be in order as well.
>When you are having a hypoglycemic episode, is "sorry" going
> to help? Or do you need food?
A hypoglycemic episode is not something anyone does to me. It just happens if I don't eat, and I make it my responsibility to make sure I do eat regularly.
I used hypoglycemia as an example because I figured it was an experience that I could present that you could relate to -- it requires something more than just platitudes and expressions of regret to fix it.
"Sorry" don't do shit to repair damage that's been done. It doesn't repair broken bones or smashed china. And there are things that people do to each other that "sorry" won't fix.
Re: defining fragility
Date: 2002-10-01 09:14 pm (UTC)"Sorry" don't do shit to repair damage that's been done. It doesn't repair broken bones or smashed china. And there are things that people do to each other that "sorry" won't fix.
Agreed. I never said "sorry" fixed anything. What it can do, for me at least, is open the door to communication, understanding, and hopefully, healing. "Sorry" can be a means to a valuable end, and I will not undermine the importance of that. You have to start _somewhere_.
I think what I'm seeing here, if you'll allow me to hazard a guess, is that "sorry" doesn't do much for you when you're hurt and/or damaged, and you're assuming, by extension, that it also does little for other people. Can you step back and see why "sorry" might hold an importance for others that it does not hold for you?
If "sorry" is not what you want or need, then what else works for you? What do you require? I'm asking so that I can better understand how to relate to you and to other people who's reactions to "sorry" are not the same as mine.
And yes, there are absolutely some things that people do to each other that "sorry" cannot fix. That nothing can fix.My apologies if it seems like I'm touting "I'm sorry" as a universal bandaid for all hurts and damages. That is not my intent. My intent is to explain that if someone has hurt me, the best thing they can do (barring extreme situations) is to approach me with an honest and sincere apology. Does the damage end with the apology? No. But a dialogue has been opened, and I can't help but view that as good.
Re: defining fragility
Date: 2002-10-01 09:51 pm (UTC)And I think we are talking about completely different things. Sorry, but I do. You keep referring to hurt, and I keep talking about injury.
If "sorry" is not what you want or need, then what else works for you? What do you require? I'm asking so that I can better understand how to relate to you and to other people who's reactions to "sorry" are not the same as mine.
First aid.
I'm being glib, but I've been using physical examples all along, and those aren't just metaphors. I've fallen off a fucking cliff ferchrisakes, I didn't ask the cliff to apologize for hurting me. I didn't ask the guy who raped me to apologize. (Although I might have asked him to die if I thought he would do it.) I'm never going to get an apology from all the various things that killed all those old friends that I will never see again.
And I know I'm beginning to get extreme in my examples, but obviously I'm having a hard time explaining what I mean, so the rediculous examples are coming out in an attempt to get my point across.
And I apologize right here and now for feeling this way, because I know it's horribly dismissive, but every time you respond to my talking about "hurt" by saying, "when somebody hurts my feelings", my immediate gut-level reaction is to think that this is reasoning that could only come from somebody who has never been beaten up.
And I think the conversation had digressed from the original topic anyway -- way back when I was grousing about fragility, I was thinking about how when I was a little kid, my playmates would hit me with a stick and I would laugh, and then I would punch them and they would cry. And that it gets to be a pain in tbe ass sometimes that I forget that when somebody hits me with a stick, I still have to be freakin' careful how hard I hit them back.
Re: defining fragility
Date: 2002-10-01 09:57 pm (UTC)The one thing I forgot to say.
"Sorry" does hold a very important role for me.
However, in the circumstances to which I have specifically been referring, sorry has it's place -- and it's something that one might say after one staunches the bleeding.
And even so, once I've been stabbed, no matter how sorry the person is, I'm unlikely to want to hang around with them much if they continue to carry knives on their person.
Re: defining fragility
Date: 2002-10-02 01:04 pm (UTC)The fact was never really made explicitly clear until now, but it does account for a lot of the disconnect we’ve been having during this discussion.
I am not talking about physical damage or injury, in any way, shape or form. I never have been. All of my comments have been referring, specifically and explicitly, to emotional damage. Seen within that context, your comments make more sense, and I hope some of mine make more sense to you.
And I apologize right here and now for feeling this way, because I know it's horribly dismissive, but every time you respond to my talking about "hurt" by saying, "when somebody hurts my feelings", my immediate gut-level reaction is to think that this is reasoning that could only come from somebody who has never been beaten up.
Yes, my reasoning does come from someone who has not been beaten up in a very long time. I can only comment from my own experience or lack thereof.
It’s been two decades since I’ve been beaten up, and I’m not suggesting that being beaten up and being hurt emotionally are in any way comparable. Maybe it would help if I clarified what I mean. I’m not talking about hurt feelings in an “you called me a name on the playground” kind of way. I’m talking about a serious betrayal or disappointment in someone. I’m talking about someone who attacks you on a very primal level, betrays your trust. That kind of hurt.
If someone beat the crap out of me, raped me, threw me off a cliff, injured someone I care about, then “sorry” wouldn’t do a damn thing to help. On that point, I agree with you completely. Just to be absolutely clear, at no point during this discussion was I ever trying to imply that being hurt physically and being hurt emotionally are the same and should be handled as such. I apologize if you felt that I was trivializing your arguments in any way.
And even so, once I've been stabbed, no matter how sorry the person is, I'm unlikely to want to hang around with them much if they continue to carry knives on their person.
Agreed. Forgiving does not mean forgetting. Forgiving can mean “I am no longer angry at you for the situation that just happened, but I’ll be damned if I ever put myself in a similar situation with you again”.
(no subject)
Date: 2002-09-26 09:53 am (UTC)I love DUST!
Hey congrats on the unleashing of LD50 onto the world.
jv
Dust
Date: 2002-09-26 04:49 pm (UTC)Unfortunately, they usually do that by falling to pieces.
I love DUST!
I'm quite taken with them. I can't wait to hear the new album -- they're playing in Harlow on the Thursday before Whitby with Chaos Engine, so I'm planning on being there for the show.
Hey congrats on the unleashing of LD50 onto the world.
Link to us, you bastard!!
Re: Dust
Date: 2002-09-27 03:42 pm (UTC)Re: Dust
Date: 2002-09-29 03:28 pm (UTC)It's just outside of London.
Re: Dust
Date: 2002-10-02 08:32 am (UTC)