I don't think we're in Kansas any more

[the_siobhan]

I think the hardest thing to process about Haiti are the massive dichotomies.

Take urban sophisticated intelligent people who are comfortable with computers and cellphones, who watch music videos and football on television. Plonk them down in a country with over 80% unemployment, where half the kids can't go to school because there is no money and where the only income available is often from selling wares on the side of the street.

There is incredible natural beauty and appalling urban decay. But you can still see the bare bones of cities that were once beautiful, with wide boulevards and bright airy buildings, now crumbling.

There is incredible energy here. This isn't some sleepy backwater. This is the home of the only successful slave revolt in the world and the people are damn well aware of it. They know exactly what has been done to them and by who, yet we are approached in the street every day by people who tell us that they are glad we are here visiting their country, that Haiti welcomes tourists.

It's been a mind-blowing trip and unlike any place I've ever been before.

I can see why some people find it so addictive.

Comments

[megiddo-lj.livejournal.com]

I was very disappointed that we weren't allowed to actually go *into* Haiti when our cruise ship stopped on a private 'beach' peninsula there last year. I would have liked to visit actual villages and meet real people, but at least we could see the gorgeous natural beauty and also the abject poverty as we sailed around the island.

[inulro.livejournal.com]

How very frustrating!

[montieth.livejournal.com]

Noone alive held those slave chains. Moreover, you'll probably find that they realize that in some part, 1st world interference holds far more stability and safety (perhaps freedom) than local rule has proven to show. Just look at Zimbabwe.

[(Anonymous)]

Your ignorance is only matched by your stupidity.

[montieth.livejournal.com]

Ahh, and since Dessalines proclaimed himself Emperor, things have gone swimmingly haven't they? A succession of Coup d'états, assassinations and bankrupt governments are the rule far more than the exception.

Please, for the sake of argument, explain to me how things went right when Mugabe was elected as president, apparently for life when true democracy was just thrust into Zimbabwe. I'm sure the land redistribution meets with your approval no?

But really, I hope you guys have a good time. Stay away from the voodo and if there's another revolt, coup or assassination, get to the nearest Canadian Consulate. Or find some Marines.

[grimjim.livejournal.com]

The first world has continually interfered in Haiti. The USA occupied Haiti from 1915 to 1934
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Haiti

As in other countries occupied by the United States in the early 20th century, the local (U.S.-trained) military was often the only cohesive and effective institution left in the wake of withdrawal. This sowed the seeds for a sequence of military-backed dictatorships, all attached to American patronage, which would define the next 50 years of Haiti's history.

Fifty years takes us to the 80s, when Aristide was elected democratically. The USA led a UN force into Haiti in 1994 in order to restore Aristide to power after a military coup in 1991. The Republican Party via the IRI took on a local leader in Haiti who seemed intent on provoking regime change, to take down Aristide. Rebels in 2004 overthrew Aristide, giving lip service to democracy, and then ushered in the current era of Haiti as failed state and subsequent UN stabilization mission.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/29/international/americas/29haiti.html

Seven months later, an accused death squad leader helped armed rebels topple the president, Jean-Bertrand Aristide. Haiti, never a model of stability, soon dissolved into a state so lawless it stunned even those who had pushed for the removal of Mr. Aristide...

The Bush administration has said that while Mr. Aristide was deeply flawed, its policy was always to work with him as Haiti's democratically elected leader.

But the administration's actions in Haiti did not always match its words. Interviews and a review of government documents show that a democracy-building group close to the White House, and financed by American taxpayers, undercut the official United States policy and the ambassador assigned to carry it out.

First world interference apparently led to the most recent destabilization and resulting lack of safety.

I fail to see what Zimbabwe has to do with this. It seems about as relevant to Haiti's situation as South Africa, which is currently emerging as the economic powerhouse of Africa.

[montieth.livejournal.com]

The first world has continually interfered in Haiti. The USA occupied Haiti from 1915 to 1934.

Under Wilson. Yes, and it was in the shadow of WWI. No small matter and German investment was an issue.

Mind you there's this section of the same entry.

The occupation of Haiti lasted until 1934. The U.S. occupation was self-interested, oppressive, sometimes brutal, caused problems that lasted past its lifetime, and never paid any reparations for its crimes. Reforms, though, were carried out. The currency was reformed and the debt stabilized. Corruption was reduced, although never eradicated. Public health, education and agricultural development were greatly improved.


Reminds me of The People's front of Judea. What have we got to thank the Romans for!?

First world interference apparently led to the most recent destabilization and resulting lack of safety.


I would argue that their history set a precedent ( Emperor Jacques I) that they have a hard time departing from. And I think you'll have a hard time proving US involvement in the catalyzing factor which aroused the ire of the Buteur Metayer, namely the murder of his brother. Whether Aristide was responsible or not is difficult. It certainly goes to show that the government wasn't very effective in keeping order. Given that the rebels could take a police station and then go from there to taking over the entire country.

I fail to see what Zimbabwe has to do with this. It seems about as relevant to Haiti's situation as South Africa, which is currently emerging as the economic powerhouse of Africa.

It's the implication that you should hate a people for the crimes of people generations in the past to whom they are not even related just because they share the same skin color. In Zimbabwe that was exactly the justification given (in part) for the land grab, oh sorry, 'land redistribution (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/834486.stm)'. In this case, it's what Siobhan implied by being surprised the Haitians would not hate them. The locals apparently have something of a clue because they connect tourism with income and prosperity.

Interestingly, when they LAST revolt happened, they were begging for the Marines to come back. I guess they prefer the firm and rather just hand of Marines to the ghastly hand of a militia named for a Voodo boogie man (ie the Tonton Macoute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonton_Macoute) or gangs named the Cannibal Army.

[bcholmes.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, but "Anonymous" is right. You're really talking out of your ass.

[grimjim.livejournal.com]

No one denies Haiti has been a weak state for historical reasons. Nation-building is a hard task, as the UN stabilization mission (staffed primarily with Brazilians on the military side) has found.
http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2007/11/09/1084276-new-un-envoy-sees-long-haiti-mission

"The security situation is extremely fragile. And if we were to downsize dramatically there would be a vacuum that would be immediately backfilled by the same people that were there when we got started," said Annabi, sitting in his office in the hills above Port-au-Prince.

When asked how long that might take, Annabi said: "You don't create a security force, a police force, in two or three years. ... It takes 10, 15, 20 years."

...

Many Haitians have been calling on the U.N. force to foster development in the country, but Annabi said Thursday that is not the role of U.N. troops.

"What we do is we create the environment in which job creation, investment and economic reconstruction can take place. We don't do it ourselves," Annabi said.

It's not clear to me if they're working to build and strengthen democratic institutions.

The last revolt can't be blamed entirely on weak local rule given that USA appears to have indirectly backed the revolt.
http://foi.missouri.edu/newsmgmtabroad/probingusties.html

Dodd's focus is on the Dominican Republic, where over the past two years a group called the International Republican Institute trained hundreds of Aristide opponents, giving them classes in political organizing and similar skills.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Republican_Institute

Founded in 1983, the International Republican Institute (IRI) is an organization, funded by United States government, that conducts international political programs, sometimes labeled 'democratization programs'.[1]

Initially known as the National Republican Institute for International Affairs, the IRI's stated mission is to expand freedom throughout the world...

Lucas was also simultaneously running IRI's Haiti program, which had been financing activities to seek removal of Haitian President Jean Bertrand Aristide. USAID funded IRI to the tune of more than $3 million from 1998-2003 to destabilize Haiti under the guise of 'promoting democracy' [...] Lucas, wealthy and Haitian-born, was hired by IRI in 1992 to run their Haiti sessions for Aristide's most virulent opponents. IRI's millions and Lucas's genius applied the US intervention model formerly used in Nicaragua: unification of opposition parties.

That appears to tie the rebels in the most recent revolt to the USA. It's a bit of a salesman's trick to create a need (a security vacuum) and then fulfill it (send in the Marines). That style of intervention could easily anger nationalists and lead to hate. It's to Haiti's credit that hate appears not to have taken hold.

Zimbabwe is destroying its own infrastructure via bad policy, and the government is strong enough to suppress political opposition. The differences are sufficient to make it a non sequitir as far as Haitian self-rule goes.

[montieth.livejournal.com]

When asked how long that might take, Annabi said: "You don't create a security force, a police force, in two or three years. ... It takes 10, 15, 20 years."

Like as long as the USMC was there during the 20s and 30s? But was pulled out because FDR probably felt the Federal Government was hard pressed to support the efforts given our own problems. Even so, apparently a great deal of work was done to improve sanitation and other health related services and generally make things better for the country as a whole. Roads were improved, if in a somewhat ruthless manner of obtaining labor.

That appears to tie the rebels in the most recent revolt to the USA. It's a bit of a salesman's trick to create a need (a security vacuum) and then fulfill it (send in the Marines). That style of intervention could easily anger nationalists and lead to hate. It's to Haiti's credit that hate appears not to have taken hold.

US Marines, Canadians and French mind you, be sure you get the full weight.
What's the US motive for ousting Aristide?

Could not Aristide's problems be of his own making? Even the Quakers seem to point to Aristide's militias (http://www.peaceworkmagazine.org/pwork/0403/040304.htm), the Lavlas party thungs as it were, who more or less had the run of the country as brute force enforces of his will.

Since his return, the Aristide government, through increasing corruption and repression, has gradually generated the present crisis. Aristide armed his partisans, the chimeres, who have life-and-death power over any who question the arbitrary decisions taken by the Lavalas government. Aristide's supporters have had nearly total impunity. For example, on January 13, 2004, they openly attacked a restaurant where several radio announcers, seen as troublemakers by the government, were gathering. No investigation was made despite requests from the opposition and civil society.
.
.
.
Anti-government demonstrations have increased across the country, especially after government supporters, along with the Haitian National Police, invaded the Social Science College and the National Institute for Management and International Studies on December 5, 2003. They destroyed all the computers at the Social Science College and injured many students. Even the Rector and vice-Rector were not spared despite their attempt to mediate. The government supporters broke both of the Rector's legs with iron bars while the police stood by and did not intervene. The police opened an inquiry, but it is widely regarded as only an empty exercise.

[montieth.livejournal.com]

Here's another source at Human Rights Watch (http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/haiti/backgrounder.html)

Perhaps the year's most shocking event was the assassination of acclaimed journalist Jean Dominique, a murder that has yet to be solved. But the year 2000 also saw the April burning of the headquarters of the opposition coalition, the deeply flawed May elections, the June flight into exile of the president of the electoral council, and the November pipe bomb explosions that killed two children and wounded numerous others, as well as a succession of violent street demonstrations that went largely unchallenged by the Haitian National Police.

That appears to tie the rebels in the most recent revolt to the USA. It's a bit of a salesman's trick to create a need (a security vacuum) and then fulfill it (send in the Marines).

Murders, beatings, arson attacks and other thug tactics on opposition party members, their supporters and their offices as well as journalists are NOT the hallmark of a government that should stay in power. Human Rights Watch paints a VERY horrible picture of the rule of law and justice in Haiti under Aristide and his Fanmi Lavalas party supporters. Multiple articles point to the second term elections being deeply flawed and many international organizations who oversee such things quitting due to the utter disinterest in correcting the problems by the sitting government.

Perhaps IRI Funded Aristide's own thugs? Is that what you suggest?

Zimbabwe is destroying its own infrastructure via bad policy, and the government is strong enough to suppress political opposition. The differences are sufficient to make it a non sequitir as far as Haitian self-rule goes.

In both cases, strong men come to power democratically, then their supporters are given not just fat contracts but other people's property and the rule of law then becomes THIER toy to play with. Not in the right party/tribe, you're as good as dirt and the police, if not active in your beating and/or death at least turn a blind eye to it. In both cases, the pattern is the same, the inequitable application of the law equally to all.

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

Human Rights Watch's information on Haiti is flawed, which is too bad because they do a good job in other countries. A better resource would be Institute for Justice and Democracy in Haiti (http://www.ijdh.org/).

One of the big problems that Haiti faces is that the police aren't answerable to anyone, certainly not to the government. My country's role in Haiti is supposedly in assisting and training the police force. I'd really like to know what they've actually done since they've been down there, because the justice system sure as hell hasn't improved any.

[montieth.livejournal.com]

As with any nation or any people, you can train them but if they don't actually believe in the reasons for doing so, they're very likely not going to do what's necessary. The rampant corruption once it gets beyond a certain point gets VERY hard to correct and it's going to taint the entire system from tax accounting, to utilities, and worse the police and judicial system. If $50 can get you out of trouble, or a call to the right friend, where's the justice in the system, then its entirely up to who has the right connections or the right amount of money.

CanForces could spend YEARS teaching each of the police how to properly investigate crimes and that bribery is not a proper way to run things and if the police and judges fail to adhere to the ideals, the training isn't going to do squat. Probably the best solution, is for a draconian and very lawful group to come to power and to begin squashing corruption from the top down. Major trials and strong/long jail terms and seizure of assets would have to happen but, with any system, how to prevent that power from going to the head of the person who's doing all that? With Papa-Doc you have to wonder, he started out working against the Yaws disease. How did he go from being a healer to a brutal dictator? Not enough checks and balances and not enough people to support such a system.

Haiti isn't going to get better until the people in large part say enough and begin to stop partaking of the corruption themselves when they have the opportunity.

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

Your argument is pretty much the equivalent of telling Americans they can reduce gun crime by rejecting being shot at.

[montieth.livejournal.com]

No, it's not.

You eschew crime, in total, you eschew corruption, in total. You refuse to allow bribes to be used, you don't pay them, you don't take them.

Your gun crime equivalent is that as a gun owner, I don't sell a gun to someone who asks me who can't. I don't break the law by shooting at people without just cause, I come down like a ton of bricks on someone I see who IS committing a violet crime. I report crimes that I see. I stop and render aid to those in need. I don't stand by and say it's not my problem. I don't ignore it and I certainly don't join in, even if it's my group going at another group. In short, you make sure that the criminals don't get guns by putting them in jail.

The same thing works for corrupt officials. You target them, you try to bribe them. You run people through the system, do they ASK for bribes. You catch one who takes a bribe, you throw them out of office you throw them in jail. People who TRY to give bribes get the EXACT SAME TREATMENT.

Do they do that in Haiti? Somehow I doubt it.

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

You offering to provide the funding for all this?

[montieth.livejournal.com]

Here or there? I already do pay for both.

I pay city, state and federal taxes. I pay surcharges on firearms, components and ammunition.

UN Budget is what, paid for 22% by US taxpayers? I pay part of that. I pay for part of the USMC's costs and operations. They were there with the Canadians and I expect they secured the airfields the canadians flew in on because the Marines have ships they can deploy from. The US mission to Haiti also included a LOT of funding. FY 07's request was $198 million just for Haiti.

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

Ryan, this entire argument is ludicrous.

You are talking about a country where the vast majority of people can never expect to have a job that allows them enough income to eat every day. In their lives.

Saying they could fix their problems by "rejecting corruption" is living in a fantasy.

[montieth.livejournal.com]

Then they're never going to see an effective economy develop because they'll be too busy stealing from each other because everyone embraces the corruption and all of its inherent problems. Even with all of the foreign aid, they'll never gain any ground. Nothing comes for free. Taking it doesn't make it free.

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

Tell that to the people who have been sucking money out of the country for the last 200+ years.

[montieth.livejournal.com]

You know, I expect you're probably stuck in the mindset that it's just the rich and powerful that are corrupt right? When you get a country like haiti, it's not just the rich and powerful, everyone is on the take or is taking.

A poor guy gives a weeks wages to the local cop to turn an eye to some thefts. A poor family steals their power by tapping into a nearby power line. The local cop takes protection money or extorts businesses or engages in thefts.

Corruption is like garbage. The more prevalent it is, the more it gets everyone dirty (and sick). Sure the poor guy at the end of the street only dumps his small waste bin and chamber pot in the street, but if you're trying to clean it all up, it's not going to help if 9/10s of the population are still dumping raw sewage in the street after your NGO has come through and cleaned it up just yesterday.

[grimjim.livejournal.com]

The IRI is documented as being against Aristide. There were pro-Aristide thugs and anti-Aristide thugs.

As for likely US motive for removing Aristide, try the War on Drugs.
http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2004/03/01/drug_allegation_gave_us_leverage_on_aristide/

US officials have been adamant over the last year that Haiti has become an increasingly important transshipment point for cocaine and other illicit drugs into the United States.

The most serious charges of drug-trafficking in Haiti have been leveled not at Aristide but at some of the leaders of the insurgency that had battled to unseat him in a revolt that began Feb. 5 in northern Haiti. Many analysts and diplomats remain nervous of a future Haiti government that includes these powerful rebels, many of them associated with previous, brutal Haitian regimes...

The United States has not formally accused Aristide of involvement in drug trafficking. But US officials have protested for months about lack of cooperation from Aristide's government.

From the US government itself. From 2003: http://www.state.gov/p/us/rm/22490.htm

[...] narcotics-related corruption is pervasive in the Haitian National Police. [...]

Haiti was decertified in 2002 because it failed to adhere to international narcotics agreements and to take counter-narcotics measures required by U.S. law. [...]

It is important that we continue to work with those elements in the Haitian National Police, most notably the Haitian Coast Guard, that we can rely on. The Drug Enforcement Agency has mounted joint operations with its Haitian counterparts with some positive results, but others have been compromised by corrupt officials.

Haiti's caught up in the cocaine crossfire between Colombia and the USA. The 1994 invasion briefly disrupted transshipment:
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43a/655.html

Bagley said drug trafficking flourished in Haiti until 1994, when 20,000 U.S. troops invaded the island and ousted a military government that three years earlier had forced Aristide into exile. [...]

The presence of U.S. forces forced Colombian traffickers to switch their shipment route through Mexico. But increased law enforcement along the U.S.-Mexico border coupled with bloody fights among rival cartels shifted the trade back to Haiti by 2000, Bagley said.

In a report last September, the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration described Haiti as one of the region's most significant trans-shipment countries for Colombian cocaine on its way to the United States. The report also said a significant amount of heroin and marijuana are smuggled through Haiti.

The DEA said Haiti's attractiveness to South American drug lords rests in its strategic location, its uncontrolled borders and lengthy coastlines, along with a lack of law-enforcement resources. Haiti has no army and its police force has about 3,500 members.

Drug traffickers have a virtual field day in Haiti, Bagley said.

That said, it's in the USA's interest to have stable governance in Haiti. From 2006:
http://portauprince.usembassy.gov/narcotics_report_for_haiti2.html

Haiti is a key conduit for drug traffickers transporting cocaine from South America to the United States and, to a smaller degree, Europe. The Haitian National Police (HNP), which is undergoing extensive USG-supported reform, is tarnished by a long-history of corruption. The judicial system is dysfunctional, its prosecutors and judges susceptible to bribes and intimidation. Corruption, lack of judicial infrastructure and the ongoing political and economic crises have caused the Interim Government of Haiti (IGOH) to focus its limited resources on maintaining civil order and organizing fair, democratic elections, rather than on counternarcotics.

Cocaine is arguably destabilizing Haiti by promoting corruption.

As for the list of bad examples, you may as well add Venezuela and Russia, since Chavez and Putin both came to power democratically. Unlike Zimbabwe and Haiti, they've got oil wealth to keep his country afloat despite any weakening of democratic institutions.

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

The interests who removed their democratically elected President not once, but twice are still very much alive.

The financial interests who drain money out of the country to pay interest on a loan they never received and force them to close factories and privatize industries - still very much alive.

The "reparations" to France only ended in the '70s - the government officials who were involved in the tail end of that and those who refused to accept responsibility for monies owed - also mostly alive.

They are sophisticated enough that they know the difference between a people and their government, something that "first world" people often seem to have some trouble with. Mind you, there are also a lot of people - mostly Americans - down here doing mission work and supporting the Haitians in building schools and training medical staff so maybe that that additional perspective.

[cris.livejournal.com]

growing up in Manila, I was always very appreciative of the (predominantly white) UNICEF workers who ran the clinics and helped out at school, generally happy to play with the white school mates who were always taught in separate classes from us so that they wouldn't have to learn Tagalog, and usually nervous or disdainful of the American soldiers who were around to support Marcos' dictatorial regime.

Most 'first world' people credit themselves with knowing that black people aren't all gangsters, and Indians aren't low-wage call center fodder, and not all Asians are small-dicked kung-fu badasses. They shouldn't have trouble with the idea that other nationalities don't see them as slave-owning cowboys. Color-blindness is not genetic.

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure how the colour issue came into it, because that definitely wasn't what I was talking about. Many of the UN forces who are there aren't white, and so are some of the aid workers. I was specifically talking about country of origin, since Canadians were directly involved in kidnapping Aristide, and most people pegged us as Canadian pretty much as soon as they spoke to us.

I guess I saw my status as more tentative than that of the mission and aid workers since I was specifically there as a tourist. They sure as hell don't get many of those, but when the Haitians we spoke to found out we were visitors they told us that they were appreciative. It wasn't a reaction I was necessarily expecting given the history of our two countries.

[jin-aili.livejournal.com]

I'm not going to get involved in the debate(s) above, but I just wanted to say that I've been really appreciating reading your posts on the trip. You write so well - it holds my interest and gives me a sense of the place and your experiences. Also, you might want to add to your reading list "the uses of haiti" (http://www.amazon.com/Uses-Haiti-Paul-Farmer/dp/1567513441/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195223216&sr=8-1) by paul farmer. He's the founder of Partners in Health (http://www.pih.org), where my sister used to work. Another related book, about Paul Farmer's work in Haiti and more generally, is "Mountains Beyond Mountains," (http://www.pih.org/inforesources/books/mbm.html) by Tracey Kidder which is really an enjoyable read as well as informative, I highly recommend it.

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

Mountains Beyond Mountains is a great book. I actually read it shortly after xthlcm recommended it.

The Uses of Haiti is on my projected reading list as well - along with Confessions of an Economic Hit Man and whatever else I can pillage from bcholmes's library.

I didn't realize your sister worked with Partners in Health. BC was trying to set up a Canadian arm for fundraising, but our requirements for registered charities are a lot more strict so it didn't really work out.