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the_siobhanThis one is actually the first one I started writing, and it's been the toughest one to write in any way that makes sense. I still don't really have an ending for it.
So there was a Drama on LJ a few weeks ago. (Drama on LJ! Say it ain't so!) and like a dumbass I opened my mouth. Wasn't my problem and it didn't help, but yah know.
Anyway, the point of this is that I referred to somebody as a "raging cunt".
The audience for this particular epithet was a very different crowd from the usual reprobates with whom I normally engage in shit-talking and potty humour on an average Saturday night, and I was quite frankly taken aback by the amount of offense it caused. Not surprised that it was insulting mind you, obviously you don't throw around names like that unless you damn well intend to be insulting. But this wasn't a group that were shy about people who toss around swear words on a regular basis, so the strength of the reaction to that particular insult, and how inflmmatory it was compared to what would have happened if I had called somebody an asshole or a fuckstick or whatever - that surprised me.
So anyway, I apologized but I also continued to chew on it for a while, because, well because that's what I do. Cultural differences and differences in what is considered socially acceptable are really interesting to me. And what made this even more fascinating, is that for a long time people were using language that was offending me and I wanted to think about that.
The language being used was "date-rapist". And -- from my perspective - it was being used to shut down people who disagreed with the speaker.
In this particular argument I saw it used no less than three times, and it wasn't an isolated incident. Somebody would question or criticise a writer's argument. Or would question her wording of her argument. Or would voice an interpretation of the writer's argument that was different than what the writer had intended.
And the critic would be accused of telling the writer what the writer really thought - of putting words into her mouth. Of saying the critic knew the writer's mind better than the writer herself did.
And that's the kind of shit that date-rapists do. That's date-rapist thinking.
Wow.
First of all, let's get one thing out of the way, and that's my opinon of comparing the experience of having one's words twisted in a debate to that of rape. As somebody who has lived through both, I can assure you without a doubt that there are absolutely no simularities whatsoever.
Having said that, discussions of rape (and can I interject here that I think adding the pre-fix "date-" to that word is offensive?) don't usually upset me. Even when people use it to make stupid comparisons. What it describes is pretty evil, but the word itself is, well, just a word, right? Like cunt is just a word.
It bugs me that something so volatile is being thrown around like it's a casual insult. It bugs me that people who call themselves feminists are using an infammatory accusation, probably the worst one they could possibly make against a person, and using it to shut down disagreement. But ultimately it's all just name-calling and anybody who lets their actions be controlled out of fear of it being said they have rapist's mentality is just as sad as a person who lets their actions be controlled out of fear of being called a cunt or a bitch or a slut.
Right?
And then in the course of the argument, a man said he found the analogy offensive. And he was banned for his vituperativeness. And mocked for daring to be offended for rape victims.
He was mocked. Because he was offended "for" rape victims.
Because men are never victims of sexual assault. Because only girl children are ever victimized by adults, and only male adults at that. Because men never have to support the women in their lives through the experience of rape and help them pick up the pieces.
None of this can ever touch a man's life. He can only be offended for somebody. And that sentiment is a fitting target for scorn.
And I have no way of articulating just how repugnant I found that attitude. I've called myself a feminist since I was 12. I've debated it's value with younger women who rejected the name because they felt it was divisive or archaic. I've withstood Andrea Dworking and Camille Paglia and untold numbers of all-women-are-witches-let-me-paint-pictures-with-my-menstral-blood crackposts. This the first time I've ever actually wanted to distance myself from the label.
Am I still talking about "just words"? Because it sure as hell doesn't feel like it.
So there was a Drama on LJ a few weeks ago. (Drama on LJ! Say it ain't so!) and like a dumbass I opened my mouth. Wasn't my problem and it didn't help, but yah know.
Anyway, the point of this is that I referred to somebody as a "raging cunt".
The audience for this particular epithet was a very different crowd from the usual reprobates with whom I normally engage in shit-talking and potty humour on an average Saturday night, and I was quite frankly taken aback by the amount of offense it caused. Not surprised that it was insulting mind you, obviously you don't throw around names like that unless you damn well intend to be insulting. But this wasn't a group that were shy about people who toss around swear words on a regular basis, so the strength of the reaction to that particular insult, and how inflmmatory it was compared to what would have happened if I had called somebody an asshole or a fuckstick or whatever - that surprised me.
So anyway, I apologized but I also continued to chew on it for a while, because, well because that's what I do. Cultural differences and differences in what is considered socially acceptable are really interesting to me. And what made this even more fascinating, is that for a long time people were using language that was offending me and I wanted to think about that.
The language being used was "date-rapist". And -- from my perspective - it was being used to shut down people who disagreed with the speaker.
In this particular argument I saw it used no less than three times, and it wasn't an isolated incident. Somebody would question or criticise a writer's argument. Or would question her wording of her argument. Or would voice an interpretation of the writer's argument that was different than what the writer had intended.
And the critic would be accused of telling the writer what the writer really thought - of putting words into her mouth. Of saying the critic knew the writer's mind better than the writer herself did.
And that's the kind of shit that date-rapists do. That's date-rapist thinking.
Wow.
First of all, let's get one thing out of the way, and that's my opinon of comparing the experience of having one's words twisted in a debate to that of rape. As somebody who has lived through both, I can assure you without a doubt that there are absolutely no simularities whatsoever.
Having said that, discussions of rape (and can I interject here that I think adding the pre-fix "date-" to that word is offensive?) don't usually upset me. Even when people use it to make stupid comparisons. What it describes is pretty evil, but the word itself is, well, just a word, right? Like cunt is just a word.
It bugs me that something so volatile is being thrown around like it's a casual insult. It bugs me that people who call themselves feminists are using an infammatory accusation, probably the worst one they could possibly make against a person, and using it to shut down disagreement. But ultimately it's all just name-calling and anybody who lets their actions be controlled out of fear of it being said they have rapist's mentality is just as sad as a person who lets their actions be controlled out of fear of being called a cunt or a bitch or a slut.
Right?
And then in the course of the argument, a man said he found the analogy offensive. And he was banned for his vituperativeness. And mocked for daring to be offended for rape victims.
He was mocked. Because he was offended "for" rape victims.
Because men are never victims of sexual assault. Because only girl children are ever victimized by adults, and only male adults at that. Because men never have to support the women in their lives through the experience of rape and help them pick up the pieces.
None of this can ever touch a man's life. He can only be offended for somebody. And that sentiment is a fitting target for scorn.
And I have no way of articulating just how repugnant I found that attitude. I've called myself a feminist since I was 12. I've debated it's value with younger women who rejected the name because they felt it was divisive or archaic. I've withstood Andrea Dworking and Camille Paglia and untold numbers of all-women-are-witches-let-me-paint-pictures-with-my-menstral-blood crackposts. This the first time I've ever actually wanted to distance myself from the label.
Am I still talking about "just words"? Because it sure as hell doesn't feel like it.
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(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 05:24 am (UTC)Re: Scenes from the gender wars, Part III: Offense and Defense
Date: 2005-01-30 05:28 am (UTC)"cunt" is the insult of all insults, but being compared to a rapist is ok? not in my world, thanks. in my world it's the other way around; "cunt" is just another swear word (no worse than "prick" or "asshole" -- i tend towards the latter because it's gender-neutral), but shutting down disagreement in such a manipulative manner really reeks.
i marked several of the people in that argument as "asshole".
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 05:36 am (UTC)My ex came home from York U one day claiming that any sex between a woman and man was unconsentual because the invasive and brutal nature of the act couldn't possibly be consented to. Her professor was a massive Dworkin fan and took so many things so literally that I and likely many other boyfriends ended up being the enemy.
I've had my fair share of feminists and about once a month I do my typical post about how annoyed I am about being told what privilege I was born into even though I grew up on the streets so I know where you are coming from.
I think there are certain people that refuse to listen. They don't want to hear what anyone else says because they are so afraid that they might be wrong about something that it's easier to just attack or disregard people altogether.
I've found that people like that are best dealt with by ignoring. It certainly doesn't make it any less painful having to deal with it.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 05:40 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 05:49 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 05:50 am (UTC)the whole "date rapist" business is really repugnant, as you say. It reminds me of the way ppl sometimes throw around words like "nazi" to describe ppl who try to "oppress" them by disagreeing with them.
All insulting name calling is juvenile dirty-fighting on some levels, but there are definitely some things that become even more offensive when they are being used as a weapon against someone for simply staing their opinion or disagreeing. Some words simply just come with more baggage. It just depends on what kind of baggage is too heavy for you, I suppose.
But how an infection can be more offensive than a felony, that's a mystery to me.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 06:09 am (UTC)I stopped visiting one of the feminist "communities" on LJ when some snotty little white suburban college girl wanted to argue how sexist it was that there was no mirror on the driver's side of her car. That only sexist male designers would assume that a woman wouldn't be driving the car.
There was me thinking that maybe no one should be looking in the goddamn mirror when they should be driving. And of course... ALL women wear make-up.
Anyhow. I've had all sorts of women tell me I'm not a feminist for some pretty dumbass things... they can all just kiss my ass. Seriously. I refuse to let elitist snobs with theory coming out their ass, or lesbian separatists, or manipulative ego-trippers or anyone say I'm not a feminist.
I hope you don't distance yourself from the term. It'd be a bit lonelier out here without you in the trenches.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 06:39 am (UTC)As for the rest, all it shows is that feminists aren't inherently superior beings in all ways. They can be just as imprecise, narrow-visioned, or hypocritcal as anyone else. And odds are, in any collection of them, you're going to run into about the same number as you would for a collection of (for example) potters or model-rocketry enthusiasts. Weee, humanity! They may be a little wiser in this particular direction, but that direction might be a little narrow. I guess "feminist" is a word, too. It's just as vague and subject to personal perceptions of meanings as "umbrella". Possibly even more so, because you can at least hand someone an umbrella and say "Here it is."
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 08:23 am (UTC)I have no idea whether or not they were right about the etymology, but I've always remembered it whenever the subject came up about usage of those kinds of words.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 08:25 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 08:39 am (UTC)Crap, I'm really sorry you went through that. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
I know tons of men who have been through horrible experiences, many of them as children. And 99% of them have never told anybody else. I find it really repulsive that outside of confiding in a single friend they just can't talk about it.
My ex came home from York U one day claiming that any sex between a woman and man was unconsentual because the invasive and brutal nature of the act couldn't possibly be consented to. Her professor was a massive Dworkin fan and took so many things so literally that I and likely many other boyfriends ended up being the enemy.
My understanding of Dworkin is that in that particular theory she was describing the prevailing social climate. Not individuals. Because That Would Be Dumb.
That doesn't stop people from Not Getting It, however.
I've had my fair share of feminists and about once a month I do my typical post about how annoyed I am about being told what privilege I was born into even though I grew up on the streets so I know where you are coming from.
My girlfriend is the one who actually educated me on the different types of feminist theory, and the one that really resonates for me was always the class-theory. (Marxist feminism if my memory serves correctly.) Class differences have been way more important in my life than gender differences. I have much more in common in a very real way with men from blue collar backgrounds than I ever can with women from upper classes.
I think there are certain people that refuse to listen. They don't want to hear what anyone else says because they are so afraid that they might be wrong about something that it's easier to just attack or disregard people altogether.
I've found that people like that are best dealt with by ignoring. It certainly doesn't make it any less painful having to deal with it.
I think it must be really seductive, to have a handy Big Red Button that shuts down anybody who disagrees with you. Especially if you don't realize that's what you have.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 08:43 am (UTC)Sometimes the things that I mark as being particularily emotional are things that I an writing out because I'm still working it out in my head. Discussing it seems to engage an new and different part of my brain and I can figure out what I think and stop worrying at it.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 08:47 am (UTC)I'm responding because "men are
I'm responding because "men are <i<never</i> victims of sexual assault." I know you know the reality of this. I know everyone reading this knows it.
Men who think men are never raped or sexually assaulted can go ... away.
It's disgusting that someone would be offended <i>for</i> someone.
I'll talk about anything. I've been through a lot of things. Not as many as some here, but I've had my own fucked up world. And, sometimes, words are words spoken by those who have no clue IRL. But there are some words that make me want to hit the speaker. I don't. But "you know not of what you speak" comes to mind when others get offended for someone.
I need more folks around me like you Siobhan. Would make my life easier here in Chicago. Sorry that I've not said hi in a while. J from Indiana.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 08:48 am (UTC)OK, that actually made me laugh.
the whole "date rapist" business is really repugnant, as you say. It reminds me of the way ppl sometimes throw around words like "nazi" to describe ppl who try to "oppress" them by disagreeing with them.
Yes. Exactly. You. *points and gestulates incoherently*
Back in the Aulde Dayes of Usenet, if you wanted to shut somebody down you compared them to Hitler. To the point where somebody actually came up with Godwin's Law to describe it. This is exactly the same.
Now we just need to name a theory after it.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 08:55 am (UTC)Jon?
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 08:56 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 09:01 am (UTC)I was ticked off when I found out you were in town for Saturnalia. I didn't go because, well, I live in the burbs of Chicago. And theevilchemist never says who is coming by. I've been keeping up with your lj posts.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 09:02 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 09:07 am (UTC)Yeah. I think it would be easier to deal with if I could just demonize everybody involved in the discussion, but there were a few people I started to think were kind of cool.
But when I think about it, it also had the major two fatal flaws of human interaction. The Olde Rule, which is that you have a gang of people agreeing with each other, and groups always have a much more aggressive dynamic. And of course, the New Rule - people on the internet are always bigger and meaner than they actually are.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 09:09 am (UTC)Re: Scenes from the gender wars, Part III: Offense and Defense
Date: 2005-01-30 09:13 am (UTC)As I said to
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 09:20 am (UTC)If nothing else, it's reassuring to know that I'm not the only person who thought that was fucked up.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 09:21 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 09:22 am (UTC)In fact, this sentance alone cheered me up immensely. :-)
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 11:19 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 01:39 pm (UTC)I think it took a bit longer before people were being accused of thinking like rapists for disagreeing.
I occasionally wish that people were as ready to say "oh, if that person is a Christian, I disavow Christianity" [or capitalism, or any other ideology that the mainstream actually approves of] based on one lunatic or fool as they are to disavow feminism on such a basis. Or, more seriously, that they wouldn't let the lunatic fringe destroy a useful word and take away part of our history.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 03:02 pm (UTC)I think that, if I were in a conversation where accusations of "rapist mentality" were being used to shut down debate, "cunt" would be perhaps the nicest word I would come up with in response.
That's... a bunch of people who are drunk on the power of the righteous accusation. It's wrong, no matter what cause they claim to be in service of.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 03:43 pm (UTC)Stab the cunts in the face.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 04:11 pm (UTC)"Fuck" (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=fuck&searchmode=none)
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 04:16 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 04:21 pm (UTC)I'm probably not going to be doing any suckling. (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=feminist&searchmode=none)
I think until the world is actually a "level playing field" for everyone, I'm going to need certain specific words, like "anti-racist" and "feminist", even though I don't think the terms are optimal in and of themselves.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 04:23 pm (UTC)I was pleasantly surprised with my poll on Auschwitz day; inspired by a bunch of psuedo-moralistic idiots who got all uppity about the LJ-meme of posting "something surreal" in honour of Lewis Carroll's birthday because it also happened to be a day when we should "honour the liberators of Auschwitz". Bearing in mind that I would in no way intend to devalue or underestimate their achievements, I found the whole business offensive.
So, I decided to offend people. The only person on the pathetically small number on my friends list that read it to be offended thought I was trying to be funny. Heh.
Ultimately though, the point of using taboos to make a point was valid. The problem is that some people mistake political correctness for not daring to say anything, and others want to think it all through - when what I really think counts is having /your/ opinion based on what you know, and being happy to change it in light of new facts, but not in light of new people who may not share it.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 04:25 pm (UTC)Nope. Just drop me a line at mandor1971@livejournal.com. That will get to my new addy and I can respond so you'll have it :)
Would be great seeing you & Axel and whomever else would be coming (Casper?).
I keep meaning to drive over to T.O. I bought a new car year before last, though and it goes fast enough that I'd go to jail of OPP's finest got bored. The Miata was more fun that way. Fun to drive but wouldn't go so fast that I'd end up in jail. Tho I like the idea of breaking my 2.3 hrs from Windsor to T.O. record...
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 04:30 pm (UTC)I do have issues with certain words, just not that one. For instance, I'd never heard "pussy" used other than for felines until I got into high school and was mocked by some creepy older man cruising our campus afterhours. That I'd just picked up a stray might have prompted his harassment, but maybe not.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 04:52 pm (UTC)Same is often true for many disparities, race is one I was discussing with a professor recently. It is almost amazing that money, for some folks, can make any perceived or real differences fade away. Or money and therefore social status can make them blind (though that really isn't the word I want I can't think if the right one) to these differences that they would see as gaping if the person had less money then they.
Re: Scenes from the gender wars, Part III: Offense and Defense
Date: 2005-01-30 05:19 pm (UTC)same here. honestly, i was still in high school when i left it behind. i got frozen out of the feminist after school club when i argued that regretting sex the next morning was very different from being raped. they disagreed quite vehemently. then they wouldn't acknowledge me any more.
on the subject of words: what i find most interesting is how maleable people are about the offensiveness of words. when i was very little, my mother never really found swearing that offensive. then she started going to church for a while, (she wanted into the good retirement home), and all of a sudden she found swear words terrribly offensive. when EdwardS and i first saw her this christmas, every time we said "cunt" she went white and stopped breathing. by the end of the holiday she was laughing and joining in and calling *us* cunts.
frankly, i can't see why cunt should be more offensive than cock. they're roughly equivalent. making words for female body parts more taboo than words for male body parts really defeats the whole feminist thing, doesn't it?
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 05:53 pm (UTC)Yes, exactly. I'd forgotten the pithy phrase, but that's the principle that was rattling around my head.
Yeah. I think it would be easier to deal with if I could just demonize
everybody involved in the discussion, but there were a few people I started
to think were kind of cool.
Nothing wrong with that. The converse of the above rule is true too. It's just annoying when you can't come up with a good prejudice that manages everything for you and saves you having to deal with cluttered individuals.
But when I think about it, it also had the major two fatal flaws of human
interaction. The Olde Rule, which is that you have a gang of people
agreeing with each other, and groups always have a much more aggressive
dynamic. And of course, the New Rule - people on the internet are always
bigger and meaner than they actually are.
Never forget. They can feel superior, but you can kick their asses. Who wins?
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-30 06:29 pm (UTC)None of this can ever touch a man's life. He can only be offended for somebody.
Both these statements remind me of a fuckwit I was friends with back in university. She was a capital-F feminist, and her brand of feminism dictated that everything that was wrong with her life was because of sexism and the patriarchy. She railed at every guy she went out with that he had to "respect her as a woman", which apparently meant always paying for dinner and drinks, and never arguing with her, among other things.
She had a nervous breakdown and spent some time in the psychiatric ward of the university hospital. While in there she befriended a couple of guys her age. When she was released and went back to school, she kept in touch with them and ended up dating them.
In both cases, she hit on them while she was visiting them in the hospital. The first guy asked her to stop climbing on his bed and trying to make out with him. When she persisted, he started to cry, telling her that he was scared shitless of being in a psych ward when he was only 18, and that he couldn't handle a sexual relationship.
When she told me this, I asked "So you stopped, right?"
"No!" she said."I like him and I wanted to make out with him!"
I was furious and told her off. This was during the emergence of the "No means No" anti-rape campaign on-campus, and I remember telling her that no means no just as much for men as it does for women, that what she did was cruel and selfish. I asked how she would feel if the roles were reversed.
She didn't get it. At all. In her world, for a woman to aggressively pursue sex was Empowering, and the man in question was supposed to be thrilled and delighted by this, regardless of the circumstances.
I've dated men who've been sexually abused, and I've seen firsthand the damage it does.
Carol Queen said it best when she observed that feminism has a lot of pejorative things to say about male sexuality, and that, I think, is one of feminism's greatest downfalls.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-31 01:29 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-31 02:44 am (UTC)That and the reminder that a lot of women don't yet have the privileges that I take for granted.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-31 02:00 pm (UTC)i been reading these posts, and many of the comments. I tend to agree with you on much of it so i don't really comment, but I thought that these few articles would make a great pitch for one of the local papers. I have been working with my friend R. on writing for the past year... and she's been selling a few to Xtra! - but i think you should pitch them to a few places. You certainly have the tallent for writing these types of pieces.
we meet every Monday night at the 2nd Cup where we once tried to launch a writers night a few years back. If you are vaguely interested or just want to discuss it - lemme know.
~cam
hrmmm
Date: 2005-01-31 02:27 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-02-01 02:47 am (UTC)M.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-02-01 02:53 am (UTC)M. (Who actually used to get his jollies by trying to convince name-only feminists that 'feminism' was just another tool of the patriarchy - a tool to label and divide the sisterhood. Why _did_ these women sleep with me? Masochism?)
(no subject)
Date: 2005-02-02 01:30 am (UTC)Which isn't the same as disavowing it, I realize.
I've occasionally considered not identifying myself as Wiccan any more because of public perceptions of it.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-02-02 01:31 am (UTC)You must be great in bed or something.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-02-02 02:08 am (UTC)O :)
M.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-02-07 09:20 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-02-08 11:16 pm (UTC)