older != wiser

[the_siobhan]

I just left my last childfree community.

I first heard the term way back on Usenet, when people talked about identifying as someone who has actively chosen not to have kids. I lurked on and off in alt.support.childfree. I dropped it when it just got too busy. I don't think I ever made it as far as the moderated version.

When I started looking at communities on LJ I checked out the main childfree one, but I didn't stick around after reading only a few posts. Too many "OMG biology is so GROOOOSSSSSS" posts and sad stories about horrible parents.

But I stumbled across this latest one and thought it might have some potential. It was specifically designed to eliminate both the teenagers and the parents who inexplicably want to come in and talk about their kids. The moderator accepts new members only with references or after checking out their profiles to make sure they are over 30.

Yeah, I know there are tons of clueless over-30's out there, and lots of people who are younger who don't necessarily think "acceptance" means "for me and nobody else". But I had hoped that the level of care in admitting people meant that the culture in general would be a more mature one. That it would be a place where people would actually talk about what it means to actively chose to not raise children. How that relates to our politics. To talk about cultural pressures and family reactions and what happens when a partner starts to hear their biological clock. Hell, just a place to share once in a while how nice it is to have disposable income (ha!) and the house to yourself once in a while.

But no, turns out it's just yet another place to bitch about how unfair it is to have to be forced to share a planet with children and how repulsive it is whenever one is forced to acknowledge their existance. A safe space where people can call women "moos" and "breeders".

And you can bet I got brushed off when I protested that one. It felt much like it would if somebody just made a casual racial slur in front of me, assuming they had my automatic approval just because I'm white.

Fuck 'em. I have friends both with and without kids and everybody is welcome in my house.

Or will be once we've covered up all the lethal bits.

Comments

[griffen.livejournal.com]

Maybe you could start one and moderate it?

[panic-girl.livejournal.com]

I'd join. The "moo" thing pisses me off beyond belief. If you moderate something like hothead does in Fem Rage you wont have much of a problem (ie ZERO tollerance).

[panic-girl.livejournal.com]

In fact, email Hothead before you do it, and see if it's okay to pimp your community in FemRage. They usually don't like that, but if you talked to her first and told her why, then posted THIS as a rage, I think she'd be down.

[mandor1971.livejournal.com]

You nailed it down. I don't want kids. I don't hate kids. I get along so well with children that I get asked a lot why I don't want kids.

I also looked into childfree communities, IRL and online before I was on LJ and on LJ afterwards.

And, sadly, what I found is what you found. It really made me mad. My friends who have had kids (and take care of them and raise them!) are not "moos" (if female) or "breeders" (which seemed aimed at women again).

I was shocked that there was no derrogatory term for fathers that I saw. Mom's were "moos" but dad's were a non-issue. I think this says a lot about the child-free community and about society's view of men in general.

Definitely fuck 'em. Mothers who choose to have kids are not cows. Fathers being not worthy of an insult really ticks me off as well. There are a lot of biological fathers who are there for their kids, who are in a loving relationship with their wife and their kids.

There are also a lot of biological fathers who are the scum of the earth. There are also some mothers who are scum as well.

My friends with kids are welcome here. I need to know ahead of time because I care about the safety of children and I do not keep my house kid-safe all the time. Those who are actively raising their children tend to be people I like. I've found, over my travels, that there are a lot more of them than people think.

I've also found that pretty much no one understands the view of not wanting kids while still thinking they are kids and need to be protected in some ways. Meaning: not having drain cleaner in a place they can get to and not letting a six-year-old watch Fight Club and not letting that same kid find a vibrator. But those are things the parents and their friends should deal with. Not the law.

I ramble a lot. Anyway, preachin' to the choir, as it's said.

One thing that worries me and a lot of other men my age or older is the fear that US society has of men by themselves. My father (age 55), some male friends of mine (ages 40 to 70), and I are scared of helping kids. I'll still, and they'll still, help, but a lot of US society is so scared of the male by himself that a man helping a child who is lost is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Still have to help tho.

[kightp.livejournal.com]

It didn't take spending much time in "childfree" forums to be very, very glad that I've reached an age where nobody expects me to justify my own decision not to have kids (although I occasionally get asked if I have grandkids).

Because that means I don't need to seek support from assholes.

[kessa.livejournal.com]

Thank you for that. I have a daughter - raised her for 12 years, then her father tried to raise her for 8 more before she left home. I've not lived with a child in my home in at least ..well, almost six years now. I occassionally now have my stepdaughter here - but she's not a permanent resident. And, y'know what? that's okay.

I almost died having kids. I lost one. I have no interest in getting pregnant or giving birth - and have not since I was 21. I don't care if you have kids or don't have kids. People are people - and to each their own. Too bad society can't grow the fuck up.

[50-ft-queenie.livejournal.com]

FYI, I'm part of a community called childfree_life, that is specifically for people who don't want kids, but who like them nonetheless. Attacks and name-calling are discouraged.

I used to post to a.s.c, and then it became a really hateful place. That saddens me, because choosing to be childfree is a controversial choice, and not always an easy one, and it does help a lot to be able to share thoughts and yes, vent sometimes, to like-minded folk. If you wanted to start a child/parent tolerant community for childfree-by-choice folk, I'd be happy to share moderating duties with ya.

[mandor1971.livejournal.com]

Cool. I'll check out childfree_life. I have no issues to push (including my post here that included some sadness about men) and would like such a forum. I'll lurk before even trying join.

Thanks much!

[50-ft-queenie.livejournal.com]

Anytime! BTW, it turns out that the correct title is child_free_life. It's listed in my user info, and their profile page gives you a pretty good idea of their philosophy.

[mandor1971.livejournal.com]

Will do! I'll check it out after I finish dealing with OS and game install. WoW (World of Warcraft) and it being Friday is making me a slave.

[disastrid.livejournal.com]

doctor, we've lost another one.

[hellsop.livejournal.com]

I suppose the real question I'd wonder about is....

If someone doesn't have children, doesn't want kids, but doesn't care that other have people.... Is a support group even necessary?

[mandor1971.livejournal.com]

That bad? Sorry. :(

why a support group

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

i don't know how it's nowadays, but people used to really be pests about this -- especially relatives. it would be completely unheard of in my birth family to remain purposefully childfree; it'd be a crime against god, and all they stand for.

since i divorced them i've for the most part avoided such pressure, but people who don't want to remove themselves from their families could easily use some support for their childfree beliefs.

[peculiaire.livejournal.com]

I find childfree_zone to be similar. :) I hate it when people on childfree communities get so mean - I mean, just because I'm not so interested in having kids doesn't mean that I hate them and all people who dare to reproduce! My friends with kids are doing great jobs and I love visiting with them and seeing the children. Not my fault I don't want one for myself. :)

[disastrid.livejournal.com]

no, i just have a personal vendetta against world of warcraft. :)

[mandor1971.livejournal.com]

Heh. WoW is crap. It's more happy than EQ, but that's not saying much.

It boggles my mind that anyone can spend hours every night playing any online game. Tho I'm answering this post, so who am I to talk?

[deathboy.livejournal.com]

peh.

wankers.

[redbird]

It's support/help for dealing with pressure to have children, I think. At 41, I'm not getting that anymore, and I never got it much, but some people do.

[redcountess]

You rock so much!

Re: why a support group

[kessa.livejournal.com]

Thing is - even if you /have/ had a child - you're pressured to have MORE. People just like sticking their noses into everyone else's business. "Oh, you don't /want/ more children?" In that tone that sounds similar to "Oh, you /like/ biting the heads off of baby kittens?" Then you get the whole 'only children have issues with...' speech. I'm sure the folks with more than one child get the speeches about 'age difference' between kids or how many of each gender you should have and so on.

yeah. Child free or child limiting or whatever.... no one's ever happy with what you choose if it doesn't fit with what they would choose /for/ you.

It really is a matter of saying "This is my choice, my life - you don't like it, then /you/ try living it."

Breeders

[redcountess]

It's sad that a term used by the LGBT community for heterosexuals, that I always perceived was made in good humour, and have used myself in that context for both genders, has been appropriated by child haters, for that's what these people are.

[50-ft-queenie.livejournal.com]

Yes, it is, because there seems to be a prevalent attitude among many people that *everyone* ought to like and want to have children. Women, especially those of child-bearing age, are viewed with deep suspicion and sometimes outright scorn if they don't want to have children.

I can't tell you how many times I've been lectured and scolded over my decision not to have children. Let's not even get into the accusations that I'm selfish, cold, self-absorbed, uncaring, immature and lacking in compassion.

I don't care if other people want to have children. I just want people to respect my choice to not have any, but as kessa pointed out, many people feel entitled to butt in and make judgements about everyone else's reproductive choices.

[rivka.livejournal.com]

I've learned some useful things from childfree groups, over the years. I'm one of those people who always, always loved children and expected to reproduce. Because of that, I know I've had blind spots about what it's like when you don't.

So it's been good for me to read things from the childfree perspective. That browsing is how I know better than to call what I'm doing right now "starting a family," as if people without kids don't have families. It's how I know that some people are made very uncomfortable by a toddler coming up and trying to interact with them. (I find it charming, but I wouldn't now assume that anyone wants to deal with the Li'l Critter who hasn't already expressed interest in doing so.) So I think reading childfree groups - selectively - has taught me things that will make me less of a jerk as a parent.

That said, there's a lot of absolute idiocy to wade through to get to the good points. The crackpot theories about parenting and child development, which everyone is an expert on regardless of the fact that they've had little or no experience with children because they don't like them. The misogynistic comments about how disgusting pregnant women's bodies are. (Okay, I'm a little sensitive about that one right now.) And of course, the abusive language - from people who would never tolerate that kind of vitriol being directed at people of another race or sexual orientation.

The community childfree is often unintentionally hilarious - there's a conversation going on there now in which a bunch of 20-year-olds are trying to figure out when it was that American parenting went so completely downhill that all the children born after that time are irredeemably worthless. "Well, *I* was born in 1986, and *I* knew how to behave, but these kids born in the early 90s..."

I guess that's what you were trying to avoid in the adult community, and I'm sorry that you didn't get it there.

[mattblum.livejournal.com]

I just wonder how all these people who think it's unfair that they have to deal with the existence of other people's kids fail to think things through. How do you suppose they'd feel if there weren't all these kids around, so that when they're in their 70s and 80s there'd be no doctors to take care of them?