City of Sin

[the_siobhan]

So I went and saw Sin City the other night. The night before I came down with the neck-swelling disease from Hell.

Ahem. Anyway. I had really wanted to see it earlier. In fact I've been salivating over the commercials for months. But the_axel and I have movie tickets that we have to use up but that can't be used for the first 10 days a movie is showing. So we waited and I contented myself with watching the trailers obssessively.

The interesting thing about waiting was that I got to hear opinions from a whole lot of people beforehand. People who raved about how great it was. And people who really didn't like it at all. And in my completely non-random, non-scientific sampling of people, without fail the ones who were disappointed were people who had never read the comic book.

The reasons people cited were all exactly the reasons that I once gave why Sin City isn't one of my favourite comic books - the monochromatic tough-guy characters get to be hard to tell apart. The repetative story lines. The one-dimensional villains. The disjointed timeframes. (Well actually I like that, but I can see how it throws some people off.)

So although I thought it was a good comic, it still wasn't one of my absolute favourites. But I still went batshit fangirl when I found out it was being made into a movie. And I was thrilled when I saw how popular it was and the fantastic reviews it was getting.

Because I really, really, really want Hollywood to witness the success story that is the Sin City project. And I want them to realize that they can make a comic book into a movie and keep the characters and the story lines true to the original without turning it into a giant lamefest (*cough*Keanau Reeves*cough*) and it can still make money.

Because I'm still pissed over what they did to Tank Girl

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Another criticism I've seen, and one find a lot harder to articulate my reaction to, is one I've seen in feminist communities; that the movie is intrinsically anti-female. The majority of the female characters are sex-trade workers. Violence against women is treated as "normal". The huge majority of women are buff Hollywood babes.

Well, yeah.

It wasn't mentioned in the movie, but I remember in the comic book there was mention of the fact that the politicians specifically kept all "vice crimes" illegal, because that way everybody made more money off them - the mob, the crooked cops, the crooked politicians. It was pretty clear in the movie as well that the majority of the cops were on the take and the city was run by professional criminals and sickos.

So you have a town that is basically being used as a warehouse for the "sinful" tastes of the rich. The men who are young, strong and not from one of the rich families end up working mostly as rent-a-thugs, unless I guess they join the police force and get in on the game. And the women who are young, pretty and not from one of the rich families end up working as... hookers and strippers? You think?

Because of this debate I was actually looking for women who weren't in the sex trade while I watched the film. A couple of waitresses. A terrorist. A parole officer. Her girlfriend (mentioned, but not seen) who is a shrink. A judge. Maybe a couple of police officers, but it was kind of hard to tell in the riot gear. Then again, maybe not - the way Marv was mowing through them.

Also because of this debate I was looking for women of different body types. Even fewer of those - one waitress who fits into the Hollywood definition of chubby, although she'd be completely normal anywhere else on the planet. The terrorist, who had visible muscles on her arms. And the judge, who looked like she might be a little older. The sad part is that's actually a pretty good ratio for a Hollywood movie.

But you know, I think none of those things are actually important. Those are background details, part of the setting. What matters more is the women themselves - one dimensional film noir characters with rediculous lines that they were, they had guts. The waitress talks back to the violent ex-boyfriend who terrifies her, and threatens to defend herself against one of his drunk friends with a knife. The parole officer gets up to defends her home from an intruder in the middle of the night, and later knocks Marv out in the hope of saving both their lives. A hooker takes action to revenge her sister's death. A whole story line is based on the hookers who not only wrest control of their own fate away from the men, but fight to defend it. The women aren't the main protagonists in the stories so we don't get to hear their voices, but they are far from passive.

I get that the overt violence in the movie might be too much for people. There were some pretty gorey/disturbing scenes in it. But the whole point of the stories is that they are set in a universe where life is cheap and everything is for sale, so complaining that one of the things being sold is people kind of misses the point. Walking in there knowing that's the universe of the stories and then complaining about what the characters do to survive in it, is more than a bit like purposely going out of your way to be offended.

I saw one comment from a person say that she went into the movie "bracing herself" to be appalled. And all I could think of at the time was, "Well, you got what you wanted. Here's a cookie."

Comments

[markeris.livejournal.com]

If only I didn`t live in a deemed backwater.

I haven`t been to the Cinema for nearly 2 years. Mostly thanks to broadband. And yet I`m *gagging* to see Sin City.. Even at London Prices (ie wait 6 months and own the DVD for, quite possibly, less money).

And you holding back for 10 days is supposed to be bad?
--------
Re Feminism. Well, yeah. But hold on. The women *are* mostly in the sex trade (bear in mind I`ve got nearly all the comic books but am still dying to see the movie, so am possibly now discussing something else). But, you know, theres no pimps or shit. Theres a very real sense that if the Johns misbehave then their breath will very much be separated from their bodies. Thats going against the grain. But yeah, most of the women are in the sex trade. Meanwhile most of the men are hardboiled rugged gun toting lifeworn types. With all the right lines and muscles to back them up. Is there a feminist argument here? Cos, you know, in a world of violent righteousness, Deadly Little Miho comes out on top when I look at it by the books own standards.

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

Deadly Little Miho comes out on top when I look at it by the books own standards.

No shit.

There was some discussion of her, actually, and the fact that she pretty much lets other people tell her what to do. You don't get to learn much about her motivations, other than that she likes to kill things - I don't think she ever speaks.

[markeris.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. And if she was a bloke no one would say shit about that.

As to the being told what to do thing, well yeah, maybe that *is* a feminist issue, but if I recall correctly, she only gets told what to do by other women (when Dwight tries to do same it has to be mediated by others, at least till he proves himself). And you know, she clearly does have her own agenda. It`s just waiting on her own spinoff to tell it.

Again, I`m not sure where the feminist argument hold. In my head I`m seeing that Frank Miller is the mans mans writer, and trying to decode it from that perspective, but in terms of what he did with Sin City I`d feel like that was a massive disrespect to the man - indeed, I can`t think of another male writer in the medium who has written such strong female characters, indeed, Sin City *favours* the female characters, most of the men are rubes wheras the lasses are very much taking control of their own destinies.

BTW, I hope it`s understood that you more than most get to tell me if I`m talking shit.

[razorjak.livejournal.com]

What I got from Miho is that she really didn't care WHO she killed. She just allowed those she respected to make the decision of who gets the gift of "La Petite Bon Morte".

In her eyes, all were targets.

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

And you holding back for 10 days is supposed to be bad?

I'm going to have to do the same thing for Hitchhikers :-p

[markeris.livejournal.com]

I`m so out of the cinema loop that I didn`t even know it was out over here!

[50-ft-queenie.livejournal.com]

I'm unlikely to see Sin City cause I haven't read the comics and I have a weak stomach for violence. But that's just me. I don't understand why someone would purposefully see a film that they know isn't to their taste and then complain about it afterward, or have to "brace" themselves to see it in the first place.

That would be like me eating a plate of liver and onions and then bitching about how horrible it tasted.

BTW, did you see Hellboy?

[markeris.livejournal.com]

Just how much did Hellboy rock?

[50-ft-queenie.livejournal.com]

Hellboy rocked a FUCK of a lot.

Especially since razorjak looks just like Hellboy. You may recall Jak making Huw his bitch at C8.

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

I'm unlikely to see Sin City cause I haven't read the comics and I have a weak stomach for violence.

Probably a good thing you don't, then. Lots of violence.

BTW, did you see Hellboy?

I haven't seen it.

There's a list a mile long of DVDs we'll be renting if we ever get our tv sorted out.

[raphrat.livejournal.com]

btw, recently, after 27-odd years,
i have finally gained a taste for liver and onions.

it's yet another moral victory over my childhood self.

[markeris.livejournal.com]

"Because I'm still pissed over what they did to Tank Girl"

I`m assuming I haven`t told you the Tank Girl story yet.

My mate Keiran, a man who should have been all things to all men and indeed all women, but instead hid away in a small room.

I went round there one day. "Fucking hell", says I, "Is that an original Hewlett Tank Girl sketch on your wall?". Well, it turned out it was certainly an orignal Hewlett. Upon further probing, it wasn`t Tank Girl. It was a picture drawn by Hewlett of Keirans then girlfriend. Tank Girl was based on her.

She exists and my mate was shagging her. Form an orderly queue. I`ll sell you his address and a shotgun for 50 dollars.

He also won the role of Booga in the movie in a poker game. He`s quite bitter now the film has come out. Theres a marker that needs paying.

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

!

Theres a marker that needs paying.

I'll bet. I've got his back if he ever wants to go down there and collect.

[razorjak.livejournal.com]

I missed out on seeing a sneak preview because they didn't get delivered until after the event took place. Imagine my rancor.

Anyone who mentions how SIN CITY was anti-feminist in my presense will quite literally experience me pissing on them.

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

FIDDYPEE!

[bcholmes.livejournal.com]

Uh. Why might that be?

[medakse.livejournal.com]

A whole story line is based on the hookers who not only wrest control of their own fate away from the men, but fight to defend it. The women aren't the main protagonists in the stories so we don't get to hear their voices, but they are far from passive.

What I find interesting is that so many people start screaming "anti-feminist" whenever women are portrayed in prostitution roles. I agree with you completely. The movie, in my opinion, stressed that women could create strong communities in *whatever* kind of community they were forced to live in. And how is Sin City more revolting to feminists than, say, something like She's All That, My Fair Lady, or any of the other thousands of movies/books/plays/commercials in which women have to become standard-beautiful in order to win a guy? (not that I'm saying feminists don't find these movies revolting as well, but this feminist would much prefer something like Sin City, in which women kick some serious ass, than a rags-to-Prada story).

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

What I find interesting is that so many people start screaming "anti-feminist" whenever women are portrayed in prostitution roles. I agree with you completely. The movie, in my opinion, stressed that women could create strong communities in *whatever* kind of community they were forced to live in.

Exactly. One person's objection was (if I am remembering correctly) that although the women were portrayed as powerful, they were portrayed as powerful within a patriarchal system.

Which is completely true - and I can't figure out why that's a problem. I mean, we could make movies about what women can accomplish when they live in eglitarian societies where nobody is opressed. In fact, maybe we should. But I don't really get the point of complaining that this is not one of those movies.

[markeris.livejournal.com]

In other news, cheap flights make it likely that we will have our first proper internatinal holiday for a while in Toronto. This destination is entirely chosen based on you good people. Is this good?

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

!!

That's fucking great!

When are you planning for?

[50-ft-queenie.livejournal.com]

!!!!

Come in July for the pig roast.

[disastrid.livejournal.com]

fuckin great!! it would be fab-u-lous to see you and mog, i was sorry i didn't get to spend more time with you guys when i was in london last.

[squid-pants.livejournal.com]

". . .in a universe where life is cheap and everything is for sale, so complaining that one of the things being sold is people kind of misses the point."
So it's a Libertarian universe?

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

Pretty much.

[montieth.livejournal.com]

I would of course like to point out that the film seemed to be equally violent towards women and men, so the violence against women thing misses a key factor.

Overall I liked the move. From what I heard of an interview with the directors was that they were staying as true to the comics as technically possible. The Mickey Rourke casting was apparently quite fortuitous according to Rodriguez. Miller seemed to get more control of the film that most writers tend to.