can we still be friends?

[the_siobhan]

What do you owe your friends?

What do they owe you?

And are the rules universal? Or does it depend on the person?

A story I tell fairly frequently is about an online conversation I was having where I mentioned that the majority of my friends are always late for things, so I always plan meeting spots to be comfortable places where one can while away some time with a coffee and a book. The person I was talking to was horrified. Why would I want to be friends with people who obviously had so little respect for me, she wanted to know.

And I was horrified right back at her. My best friends have been with me through some of the darkest periods of my life, have given me support, advice, a shoulder when I needed it, have been genuinely happy for me when I've had good fortune, have moved me, have moved my dead bodies and have been some of the best company I could ask for on some of the most ridiculous adventures I could imagine. Why the hell would I ever give that up?

Do my friends owe me punctuality?

I used to have long arguments with somebody over his "dumping" of a mutual friend. If you were friends, I would argue, he has at the least the right to know that you're pissed off at him. The other maintained that since the friend was in the wrong, it was his obligation to be the first to get in contact. But why would he get in contact if you haven't told him anything is wrong? And the circle went 'round and 'round until we stopped being friends as well.

Do you owe your friends an explanation?

I dated a guy in University who told me that if a friend didn't phone him for a month, he would always tell the person to fuck off if they called up afterwards expecting to just pick up where they had left off. If they couldn't make the effort, he sniffed, they weren't worth his time. After finals had finally wrung me out and left me for dead I figured there was no point in even trying to get back in touch so I never bothered.

Do your friends owe you their time?

I wrote a story here about an incident which I count as the last of only three times in my life I have completely Lost My Shit. In the story one of my friends is running after me with no idea of what is going on, but ready - and in fact, running to back me up. I never expected it in a million years. I won't forget in a billion.

Do your friends owe you their protection?

I've had a number of friendships with people that I think of as "high maintenance people". All have ended badly. One was with a guy who would start every single email with, "I haven't heard from you in a while. Are you pissed off at me?" Another was with somebody who decided that I had hurt her horribly for some reasons that existed mostly in her own head and the fact that I hadn't panicked when she deleted her LJ (after announcing that she had no more time for LJ) was just proof that I didn't care about her.

Do you owe your friends your energy?

What do you think?

Comments

[individuation.livejournal.com]

Of those - the only thing I think you owe your friends is your time... because being a friend means being there for people.

If someone doesn't reach out to you, you have no obligation to go running after them all the time, but if you know a friend is hurting - I think a friend should give them some of their time... even if it's just to say "i'm here and i care about you"

I think you owe your friends explanations if you're upset with them or feeling like you don't want to be friends with them anymore, which I guess, in my mind, is also giving them time (the time of day).

I think you owe your friends patience when they behave in a way you're not 100% thrilled with...which is also giving them time.

I dunno... I guess mostly, I believe in treating others how you'd expect to be treated were the roles reversed.... which yes, I know, is probably faulty and weird because we all respond to things in such different ways...but for me, it's the best I can do.

[redbird]

It depends on the context, as well as on the person. People I'm close to get more slack than new or casual acquaintances.

If I know someone is going to/likely to be late, I'm probably not going to push myself as hard to be on time. If I'm expecting them to be on time, and they're expecting me to, and I skip or cut short some other activity, I'll be annoyed at their being late. And if someone is habitually late, I'm not going to make plans that depend on their being somewhere at a given time--e.g., I may arrange to take the same train with them, but I'm not going to hold their ticket, or let them hold mine, and thus risk missing the train. And if someone is habitually late to meet me and on time for other things, I'm likely to be annoyed or upset: if they're late for everything, it's not about me.

Whether explanations are owed is a harder one: sometimes A feels that zie has explained things adequately to B, and B doesn't get it. There's a difference between "Please tell me what you're angry about" and "I don't understand why that made you angry," and another between that and "You shouldn't be angry about that."

Did Mr. "They Didn't Call Me for a Month" make a point of calling people regularly, or was that entirely their job? Also, there's a difference, to my mind at least, between "I'm going to be spending the next six weeks/months dead for tax purposes because $serious_reason" and someone who somehow has time to go to movies and hang out and all with other people, but not with me. The former happens to all of us, and it's part of adult life in the space-time continuum. The latter indicates that I'm not this person's high priority; okay, I can't be everyone's, but they may not be mine either.

That said, I haven't had as much time for as many people as I'd like; I'm not assuming that the people I've not been seeing because I'm employed and exercising and have three partners, two long-distance and just don't have as much energy as I'd like *deep breath* will all be eager to fit me in if, in a month or a year, I call them up. I've chosen to narrow my focus; this is a likely outcome of that choice.

As for "Do you owe your friends your energy?", that depends on which friends, how much energy, and what for. Someone who needs a friend to hold her hand for a mammogram is in a different category, I think, from the high-maintenance people you describe.

[redbird]

Following up to myself: someone who was always late would probably drive me crazy, because I'm not good at waiting. Even with a book, a comfy chair, and a reasonable supply of tea and snacks, I'm not that good at it. I'd deal with that, probably, either by not expecting them--"I'll be at $location from 2 to 3, if you don't show up by three, I'll see you some other time"--or by arranging to meet at one of our homes. If it's my home, I've got maximum distractions and other useful things to do; if it's theirs, I have more control over timing.

And it doesn't matter that much whether they're always late because they have genuine urgent things to deal with (as with one college friend of mine--I eventually gave up on meeting him for lunch), or because they'd rather lie in bed and/or play computer games for hours after they wake up, even with two live-in partners reminding them "we've promised so-and-so we'll be at thus-and-such, you need to get up/shower/put clothes on" repeatedly. The latter is still irritating to think about, years later, but they were both problematic for me to deal with.

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

I am pretty good at waiting in situations where I have a choice in the matter. I can tell myself I'm there to have a beer and read my book and when my friend shows it it's a lovely addition to a pleasant situation. That way I'm not waiting impatiently for them to arrive so that my pleasant situation can get started.

OTOH, I will drive two hours out of my way to avoid a one-hour traffic jam because sitting motionless on a freeway drives me BONKERS.

I'm chronic at being late for everything myself though, so I am forced to be forgiving of other people with the same flaw. And since living with the_axel I've discovered that the amount we are late is cumulative which stresses me out horrendously.

[50-ft-queenie.livejournal.com]

And since living with the_axel I've discovered that the amount we are late is cumulative which stresses me out horrendously.

M and I have the same problem! It drives me nuts too,and it also baffles me as to why it takes both of us twice as long to leave the house as only one of us.

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

Axel doesn't start to get ready until I'm standing at the door with my coat on. Then he discovers he can't find his wallet/keys/gloves whatever.

And he somehow remains convinced that losing something right before he walks out the door is a fluke even though it happens Every. Single. Time.

Yeah. Nuts.

[panic-girl.livejournal.com]

It really depends on the person, and I couldn't even tell you why.
Hmmmmmmm...
I'll take so much shit from certain people, because they mean so much to me. Though thinking about it, the reason they mean so much to me, is because I haven't really taken any shit from them. Heh.

I guess all I ask is to be treated fairly. To use one of your examples, if they're always late then they can't give me shit if I'm late. If they're a drunk they can't bitch when I am. If they want me to understand, they have to at least be willing to understand in kind.

I guess that I just ask for a level playing field... and honesty. Yeah, that last one is big.

[individuation.livejournal.com]

heh - i think that makes sense.
I have had to cancel TWO plane tickets now due to the instability of my best friend's personal life in the past 2 years (going to visit her). From most people that would be the end -- from her... i got a big appology, and when i told her I was never buying a ticket to see her again.... her response was "I know! I'll pay for the next one!" That kinda took the wind out of my sails - AND she's like an adopted sister.... I'll put up with allllll kinds of crap from that one....but almost no one else.

[kightp.livejournal.com]

I owe my friends affection, loyalty (not in a taking-sides sense, though) and respect. I like to think they owe me the same.

What we do not owe each other is blindness to each other's faults. The best friends I have are the ones who know when my butt needs kicking and aren't afraid to do it.

[elixxir.livejournal.com]

Eh, when I was younger and much more arrogant I used to have a long list of rules that people had to abide by in order to be friends. The older I get the more I realize shit happens and pretty much every rule I've had has fallen by the wayside. The only thing my friends owe me is compassion. It's the only thing I owe them too. I'm happy when they've got my back, I'm happy for the time I spend with them but I don't have a laundry list of expectations anymore. Just the same courtesy back, that if I can forgive your lateness or lack of contact or whatever when shit hits you, you extend the same understanding back to me. Life, and friendships, are infinitely easier and sweeter now that it's about compassion for me.

like a friend to the end stands by you again

[raindrops.livejournal.com]

A true friend owes you nothing, but will give you everything and anything they are able to give.

In their own time (which will often turn out to be just in time for you).

IMNSHO, YMMV

[mandor1971.livejournal.com]

Given that this hits a lot of things I've dealt with and been a part of... and ties into my not having been to Toronto in a long while...

I've been the guy who disappears and comes back. Not in a romantic way, but in a good friends way, which sometimes is sort of romantic, but in a poly way. I've also been the recipient of the same attitudes mentioned in your post.

My view is that good friends are good friends. Sometimes we don't know what's going on with each other. We all get too busy, or tied up in our own heads, or whatever.

It's not about drama, it's about life and how things go. It's not about "Oh, you ticked off Fred who ticked off Sarah who ticked off... blah blah blah".

Friends are there for each other. Hell, I'd drop in to Toronto, with no notice, and spend part of my time trying to track down my friends there. When I found them, it was great. Sometimes, they'd not seen me in years. But we were friends and cared about each other. We all understood that there are times where we can't keep up with what's going on.

Real friendship is not a high maintenance issue. I just heard from a friend of mine tonight that I'd not talked to in a year. It wasn't because we didn't want to talk. It was because things, often minor things, prevented it.

Real friends are friends. We're there for you when you need us, and sometimes we're out of the loop. Sometimes we're late. Sometimes you're late. Sometimes we can't get together. But we know each other well enough to be happy to see each other when we can.

Anyone who gets mad about it hasn't been friends with people who have moved away.

theevilchemist and I are friends. Siobhan and I are friends. Grendelsden and I are friends. Labyrinthman and I are friends. Many others and I are friends.

We know each other. Sometimes we need support and ask for help. Other times we don't. But we're always happy to see each other when we can and can pick up from where we left off. We know the things we dislike about each other, but the things we like about each other win out.

That's friendship.

Re: can we still be friends?

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

no, the rules are not universal, *heh*. (is anything? i doubt it.)

punctuality doesn't matter at all; i adjust easily to people who can't manage to be on time by not putting myself into a situation where i would get pissy when waiting. punctuality isn't about respect for me; it's just one of those things that can cause problems if not handled creatively.

in general i don't think of friendship as "owing" things to people. i do spend time, energy, affection, etc on my friends, but that's because i want to, not because it's in a contract somewhere, with somebody counting the beans. it's more of a ... zen thing, *heh*. i'll notice if somebody never seems to have time for me anymore, but i don't think in terms of them owing me, but more in terms of zir having other priorities; and a friendship might drift out of touch completely if that continues. i tend not to "break up" with friends over them not treating me right; it's much more likely we'll never become friends if they don't treat me in a way i like. not having much specific time for me after the friendship is established isn't that big a deal -- it does matter during its formation, though, which tends to be intense, or at least have an intense period after a slow run-up.

i also tend not to become friends with people who count beans. it's all pretty low drama in my friendships, they just sort of drift around in my relationship space, sometimes closer, sometimes further away. i like them closer, but life has its own flow; there are so many competing issues that all take time and energy -- i don't blame others if they become involved elsewhere. i am happy when those i care about choose me as one of the factors in their lives.

my friendships are, if it wasn't obvious, largely cerebral; most are also long distance. the respect in them shows itself in the way we talk to each other, what we share with each other, how we react to differences in our viewpoints; that sort of thing. it is in some way about being there for one another, but not in a hands-on, helping each other hide the bodies way. few of us could afford the airfare. :) the most hands-on it gets these days is late-night IM sessions. i am ok with that, but been feeling a bit of an urge to make stuff for my friends, creating a more visual presence that shows how much i do actually think of them during my day.

Re: can we still be friends?

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

punctuality isn't about respect for me; it's just one of those things that can cause problems if not handled creatively.

I've since seen other people express the same sentiment as the woman I mentioned in my post. (She was just the first.) And it always weirds me out to see others agreeing that being late is a sign of disrespect, or of control. Because I'm constantly late and the only thing I'm trying to control is a universe that delights in fucking with the clocks whenever I'm around.

i also tend not to become friends with people who count beans.

I vaguely remember somebody in a.p. (Stef maybe?) saying that if zie starts counting beans it's a sign there is trouble in the relationship somewhere. That really fits in with my experiences as well.

[nachtisch.livejournal.com]

For me it depends on how close the friend is. Of course how close the friend is depends on their actions in the first place, but that's a given.

I tend to have two circles of friends with some mobility in between. Inner circle is basically "people I call on and who call on me when we're royally fucked or super excited about something." Outer circle is "drinking buddies." Lots of people fall somewhere in between, like a mobile zone where they're on their way to one or the other or just permanently somewhere in between. None are really lesser people than the others. They just fill different needs in my life as I do in theirs.

A big one for me is close friends hang out in each other's houses. I usually don't feel close to people I only see in commercial establishments.

What do people owe me? Not much, really. It's mostly "be who you are and if we click, then great." With close friends of many years I've been known to be extremely hurt if they aren't 'there' (e-mail or phone call suffices for 'there') during a difficult or celebratory time as I would be for them. Then of course you get the occasional fun person who launches personal attacks during a difficult or celebratory time. That usually warrants banning.

I used to be big on "close friends call each other on bullshit." Experience has taught me to add a v. important caveat of "choose your battles!"

[razorjak.livejournal.com]

One owes a friend nothing. To owe someone means there's a debt of some kind. What one gives to a FRIEND is something freely given and not out of some preconceived notion of "owing you one".

I really wish I could state that in a way that doesn't sound snotty.

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

I don't think that sounds snotty at all.

[squid-pants.livejournal.com]

I don't believe in entitlement.
My friends are my friends anyway. All favours of all kinds given or received are purely voluntary.
Nothing is owed, nothing is deserved, nothing is expected. It's real when it comes in that case.

[grimjim.livejournal.com]

Punctuality: It varies from culture to culture, therefore it's not a universal.

Explanation: Not owed per se. I figure if some people are content to let misunderstandings persist, they karmically deserve any drama they create accordingly. Telepathy isn't common among humans yet, after all.

Time: High maintenance does not work for me either. Compatible comfort zones helps, of course. Lengthy gaps aren't a mortal offense in my conception of friendship, as you've surely inferred.

Protection: It would be nice, but I don't expect it per se.

Energy: Ideally energy should be provided out of desire, not obligation or fear. I can't say I approve of the adult analog of attention-seeking tantrums. I suppose this says something about my notions of power and control.

[ex-unagothae16.livejournal.com]

I think I've had alot of bad examples of friendship and am still looking for good ones. Though, I must admit that the people who still read my LJ after all I've been through and put myself through and STILL care enough to show support and offer help are pretty damn good examples.

[kalmn.livejournal.com]

it depends on which friends, where they live, what shared interests we have, how much time we spend together, etcetera.

uh. like you didn't know that.

but i expect some amount of emotional connection. and some amount of reaching out to me. i just recently "broke up" with two people who i considered to be fairly good friends, it's just that they were busy all the time, which i can make allowances for. however, when i left n, and it had been seven months, and no calls, no asking to get together, only one inquiry about how i was doing (at a time when we were getting together to do something else) (and that's one inquiry total, not one inquiry each) i realized that no, actually, we weren't friends, as far as i was concerned.

[liz-lowlife.livejournal.com]

Friends owe you nothing. They aren't bound by the rules of family, who actually should have an obligation to some degree.
friends are miraculous. They chose YOU with their own free will. They took time to like YOU warts and all and on occasion can surprise one with their compassion and patience. But they came to you with free will and should never be bound to you by rules of convention.
Friends are a gift to be cherished.
I don't feel like I owe my friends anything, but because they have been so good to me, I am naturally disposed to wanting to please them and help them out if needed simply because I feel compelled to by my respect and love for them.
I think that's how all relationships should be. Nobody has a right to anything. But a culture of kindness given freely is a good thing. :o)

[girfan.livejournal.com]

Everyone else has expressed what I want to say, and in most cases, better than I ever could.

I am a very punctual person and tend to be early for stuff. I only expect punctuality when it is time critical: meeting to see a concert, film, play, etc where if you walk in late, you miss stuff or disrupt others or if a flight/bus/train has to be caught. Meeting up for drinks, to go clubbing, a party, shopping, etc isn't time critical and I am not fussed.

Explanation? It's been ages since I had to "break-up" a friendship and when it happened, I always said why. I should hope the same courtesy would be extended to me.

I also have a circle of close friends. Unfortunately for me the large majority live on a different continent now. Some stay in fairly close contact-mainly e-mails and LJ-whilst others are more sporadic. Very few call me (though I call them) or come to visit. It's been hard to deal with at times, but most of them have been friends with me for 15+ years and I would do whatever possible to be there for them.

Friendship has many levels and guises. I try to be a good friend to those who try to be a good friend to me.

[sushidog.livejournal.com]

Different friendships have different rules. I have friends who are _always_ late for social engagements, but if I phoned them at 4am because I needed help, they'd be there as quickly as they could get there. Their social lateness doesn't bother me, because the friendship is about something far deeper than social engagements.
I have other friends who, if they're late, it pisses me off, because it's _purely_ a social friendship, and I wouldn't even think of calling them in an emergency.

In general, if someone pisses me off, I'll try to explain to them why I'm pissed off, and give them a chance to try and sort it out. If they don't make any effort then to sort it out, I'll kind of assume they don't want to sort it out, and, if I'm seriously upset about it, I'll let the friendship go. I've spent too long desperately trying to fix something unfixable without any help from the other party, and I'm not willing to do that any more, but everyone gets one chance to make an effort to sort it.

I have friendships which are elastic; we can fall out of tough, due to life getting in the way, for weeks or even months, and then pick up where we left off. I know that if I called those friends in the meantime, they'd be there for me. Again, the friendship is not about being in constant contact, it's deeper than that.

I know someone who says that friends don't make demands on each other and don't have expectations of each other. I say that's bullshit; making demands and having expectations is what friendship _is_; those are just other words for trust, for knowing that you can rely on someone. (I wrote a bit about it here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/sushidog/369351.html))

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

I like your post, it teases out some of the things I'm mulling over.

It seems to me (if I am reading it correctly) that your posts says that you owe your friends consistancy, to be the person you are - somebody who tells them the truth, has an available shoulder, etc. - because those things are the reasons they became your friends in the first place.

Do you think having expectations the way you describe it is the same as being "owed" something?

I think even the people who say that friends don't "owe" each other things still know that their friends will be there for them.

I should put a dictionary at the beginning of posts like this so we can all start at the same point. (Of course then I would get 40+ posts debating the definitions.)

[epi-lj.livejournal.com]

I'm going to have to go with, "I don't feel like there's any automatic obligation," coupled with, "It depends on the person."

I had a moment of realization on this last night. I went to see a movie with a friend. She was feeling incredibly nauseous and the theatre was very, very full. We ended up having to sit near the very back/top of a gargantuan theatre. She barely made it to the seats. When she got there, I asked, "Are you okay? Would you like me to get you something? Some cold water, maybe?" She said that water would be great but she didn't want to make me go get it. I pish-poshed and jogged off to get it.

As I was waiting in line, I was hoping that the movie hadn't started yet and that I hadn't missed any, and I was frustrated at the people in front of me who were wasting a lot of time not being able to make decisions. At one point, I thought, "Well, it's okay. If the situations were reversed, she would do the same for me."

And then it hit me: No, she wouldn't. I mean, she'll be thankful that I got her the water. She'll appreciate the effort. She might feel bad for making me go run and get it (although I'm not sure about that). But I think that, realistically speaking, if I were up there feeling nauseous and overtaxed, she would offer me sympathy but wouldn't have gone all the way back out to the lobby and spent her own money to get me water.

Now, I'm not going to ditch her friendship over that. I do enjoy her company, and there may be other things that she would do for me that I would not do in return. For example, she's more confrontational than I am, and would probably chew someone out if she felt that they'd slighted me. I'm not that comfortable with that, actually, but nonetheless, it's one of the ways she expresses friendship, and it's not something I'd automatically do for someone else. (I would certainly stand up for her and have, but I don't in general chew people out in that sort of sense.) So not everything is an equal exchange. However, it still struck me and hurt a little and made me feel like a bit of a doormat that here I was standing in line for a friend who I don't think would do the same for me were the tables turned.

And to me, that's important.

I had this idea for how to wrap this into a sweeping and interesting conclusion that also touched on respect, likeability and so on, but it just doesn't seem to be happening, so instead I'll leave that part as a fragment.

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

I've been in relationships with people that I knew would not go out of their way for me as much as I did for them. I always figured that since I knew it in advance it was a conscious decision, but it still took something away from me in a way.

At the same time I'm a strong believer in knowing peoples' faults so that it is possible for us to continue to be friends. Like knowing who can't keep a secret, who is always late for things, who always forgets dates. Some faults just make it impossible for us to be close.

[2ndaryairplane.livejournal.com]

i really do not like to think of my relationships with my friends as Owing something.
i'm there because i enjoy being with them. i give as much as i can give and if i get back, it's bonus.
they don't owe me anything, i don't owe them anything.

in the particular case, scheduling to accomodate for people 'not being on time'.
you are scheduling for FUN. what is the damn point of rushing and scrambling to have a good time? the time is set and everyone will make it there when it's convenient enough. everyone knows this.
if you have a luxury to accomodate for this convenience, why not do it?

if you are scheduling for important shit, everyone knows that, as well. they will be there on time.

[mathochist.livejournal.com]

I think friends owe you respect, courtesy, and some amount of caring.

The other things, I think, depend on whether or not they reflect a lack of said respect, courtesy, and caring. And on your own personal limits and boundaries. Frex, if you're laid back about time yourself, the tardiness won't bother you, and your friends will know that, so no problem. But in other cases, repeated tardiness might reflect a lack of respect or value for your time -- it might even be a passive-aggressive way of controlling your time or undermining your plans. If it's part of a pattern of disrespectful or controlling behavior, that's a problem. If it's just that they're not good with time themselves, then you might have to limit your dates with them to things that are not too time-critical, but that certainly doesn't rule out friendship.

Explanation: I think that generally if someone was actually a friend and you cut them off, yes you owe them an explanation, as a basic courtesy. On the other hand, the responsibility to get in touch has to run both ways, and I think that if you stop contacting them and they never contact you after that, then I think it can be chalked up to a mutual loss of interest in each other. I've let some friendships go that way, when it felt like I was a lot more interested in the friendship than the other person, and sure enough, that was confirmed when I stopped going out of my way to contact them and just never heard from them again.

[redcountess]

I used to be very much of the "you owe me" mindframe, which I think I got from my Mum. Then 2001-2002, resulted pretty much in my deconstruction, and I let go of a lot of stuff. I still occasionally feel that way, but not as strongly, and usually give my self a reality check in time.

[emulsional.livejournal.com]

I don't think a good friend is someone who keeps score... or feels entitled to receive more than what they get out of the relationship.

I also think you get what you put into friendships. The best friends I've ever had are the ones I enjoy giving more of myself to. I will overextend myself all over the damn place if I think it's a good cause (such as making our friendship stronger, or making them feel good)... and I get something out of that. To me, friendships are like investments in my own well being. If I can trust that someone else is worthy of everything I have to offer, and it doesn't feel like I'm throwing my energy into a black pit, then I consider it a good friendship.

[siani-hedgehog.livejournal.com]

i don't think you neccessarily owe friends any of those things. you don't neccessarily owe them anything.

however, you *should* try to show them consideration. that doesn't mean always being on time, but if you've got a friend who's rabid about punctuality you ought to try to be on time for them, or at least not to keep them waiting. that might mean not making time-specific plans, or it might mean phoning them on your way somewhere if you are late, or it might mean pulling out every stop to be on time for them. if you've got a friend who is very poor, you should not borrow money from them, or plan dinners with them at expensive restaurants (unless you are paying, and they don't mind being treated). if you've got a friend who is paranoid about being disliked, you should make sure to reassure them if they might feel rejected. if you've got a friend who needs regular contact, you should try to keep in touch.

sometimes, people require so much of some of these things that you simply can't manage to be friends without hurting them, and in those cases it's sometimes best not to be friends. you *can* be friendly without being friends, so it's not any reason to hate one another.

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

I find a contradiction between "you don't neccessarily owe them anything" and the subsequent list of "shoulds".

That might be a reaction to some of your examples. If somebody told me it was my job to reassure them that they are liked on a regular basis I'd ask how much I was getting paid.

[siani-hedgehog.livejournal.com]

(ah, the lj comment notification time-bomb at work again)

sorry, should=!must. clearer?

there are a lot of things in life that you should strive to do. you don't *have* to do them, but it is kind and good to do them. like giving to charity, or volunteering, or picking up hitchhikers. it doesn't make you wrong, or bad if you *don't* do them, but they are still kind things to do. so it's not your job to reassure someone, it's just a kind thing to do. nothing in a friendship is ever an obligation.

and, as i said, one doesn't *have* to be friends with anyone. often it's best for all concerned if one isn't - some people's needs are not matched with other people's ability to give, and not being friends need not mean any ill feeling.

i do well at "needs reassurance that s/he is liked" friendships - i can say nice things to people, and don't need to make an effort to. i can't manage "needs you to keep in touch frequently and regularly" ones at all. and "needs you to be on time" ones are very unlikely to work, unless the person also does not need me to see them very often. doesn't mean i don't like those people - i'm just not *friends* with them.

[ladytabitha.livejournal.com]

The owing is two-way and depends on the nature of the relationship.  I would not hold two friends to the exact same standard, though I do have some standards myself.

The nature of my friendship with a person shows through repeated exposure.  I've had friends who've helped me move bodies, but aren't punctual; I do not internally dock them points for being late to a thing, and I don't make coffeedates that require punctuality.  I've had other friends who've helped me move bodies and are very punctual.  I respect their time and they respect mine.

Respect for things like punctuality, consistency, et cetera, are event-based for me, for the most part, and less intrinsic to my view of friendship.  If I plan a time-specific event, I expect that my friends will respect my desire for timeliness - since I do not elsewise give a damn about it, it is a special thing.

Thing.

The concept of owing is a strange thing.  There are some things that are automatic for me - I am on time for things, for instance, until I establish that casualness is fine - but anything beyond that depends on what we implicitly or explicitly agree to.  I would not drop-and-run for an acquaintance; I would totally do that for my friend in Canada, whom I haven't seen in three years and only speak to once a year.

[katyakoshka.livejournal.com]

I used to have long arguments with somebody over his "dumping" of a mutual friend. If you were friends, I would argue, he has at the least the right to know that you're pissed off at him. The other maintained that since the friend was in the wrong, it was his obligation to be the first to get in contact. But why would he get in contact if you haven't told him anything is wrong? And the circle went 'round and 'round until we stopped being friends as well.

I have been that dumpee. Ended up emailing the dumper with a very polite, "I'm guessing I stepped on your toes somehow" note, and got read a riot act for stuff over three months old, festering with them while I got the wordless cold shoulder with occasional attempts to not be obviously shunning me. Plus, well, evidence that other people had heard the venting right up front from the get-go.

Realized then that I expect my friends to be honest with me if they're pissed. Explanations are owed. And in both directions.

Still bitter towards the person, over the whole situation. It's been less than a year, though, and the friendship had spanned about four, so I'm figuring the hurt and WTF?!? are allowed another few months, at least.

Addendum.

[katyakoshka.livejournal.com]

I'm probably more sensitive about this because of the whole situation that happened this year, and more inclined to use the term "owed".

So maybe it isn't "owing" as much as preferring to find direct people as friends.

Re: Addendum.

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

I'm very much the same way.

I've also tried to rekindle friendships with people after fallings-out like that. I've found it never works for me, I can never bring myself to trust them again.

[50-ft-queenie.livejournal.com]

I've been dying to reply to this for ages, and now I finally have the time.

So anyway...I don't think I'm owed anything or that I owe my friends anything, but I do expect reciprocity. If I'm always giving of my time, hospitality, help etc, and never getting anything in return, I get resentful pretty damn quickly. That reciprocity can be as simple as a phone call or an email to say hi - just something to let me know that the other person is working at this friendship too. It has to be a two-way street.

The person I was talking to was horrified. Why would I want to be friends with people who obviously had so little respect for me, she wanted to know.

Heh. I know who this is, and lemme tell ya, I got pretty damn tired of the interrogatons and snarky comments when I turned up a whopping 10 minutes late. It made me feel like my company wasn't worth much to her if I didn't play by her rules.

I'm always late, but for a really important event, I'll make the extra effort to be on time, and I expect the same from my friends. Case in point, our recent wedding. *Everyone* was there on time, and I imagine it was because they knew how important it was to M and I. Thing is, I knew I could count on all my friends to realize that and make that extra effort. It never occurred to me to doubt them.

Explanations? Yeah, I think there is some obligation to tell a friend that you're upset with them. It's unfair to expect someone to read your mind. I've had at least three friendships end within the past 5 years b/c the other person was unhappy with me, didn't tell me why, and got angry at me for not knowing that they were unhappy. By the time I figured shit out and tried to talk about it, it was too late. I still feel kinda raw about that.

Time? Hrm...lemme put it this way. There were people at our wedding that I haven't seen in years, and some I've seen only rarely. There was no falling out with any of them. We all just got busy with our lives - jobs, houses, kids, weddings, stuff - and many of us fell out of touch. One of the best things about our wedding was reconnecting with so many of these old friends. I hadn't anticipated that benefit. :)

These friends came to our wedding and celebrated with us, regardless of how long it had been since we'd seen each other. I was thrilled to have them there, and lots of dinners are being planned for future months. ;)

Should I have held it against my friends that they got busy with their lives? What kind of friend does that? I don't "count beans", as another poster put it, and I don't do well in friendships with people who do.

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

Heh. I know who this is, and lemme tell ya, I got pretty damn tired of the interrogatons and snarky comments when I turned up a whopping 10 minutes late. It made me feel like my company wasn't worth much to her if I didn't play by her rules.

The interaction I'm actually referencing happened on alt.poly, but it's an attitude I come across fairly frequently. So I'm not surprised you've run into it as well.

I've been assured that it's a passive-aggressive bid for control. While I admit that some people might be late on purpose for that reason, it also might be entirely possible that the more punctual person is guilty of making the issue All About Them.

Explanations? Yeah, I think there is some obligation to tell a friend that you're upset with them. It's unfair to expect someone to read your mind. I've had at least three friendships end within the past 5 years b/c the other person was unhappy with me, didn't tell me why, and got angry at me for not knowing that they were unhappy. By the time I figured shit out and tried to talk about it, it was too late. I still feel kinda raw about that.

I can understand that.

I think relationships normally go through ups and downs. But expecting people to just know that you're angry at them is just dumb.

Time? Hrm...lemme put it this way. There were people at our wedding that I haven't seen in years, and some I've seen only rarely. There was no falling out with any of them. We all just got busy with our lives - jobs, houses, kids, weddings, stuff - and many of us fell out of touch. One of the best things about our wedding was reconnecting with so many of these old friends. I hadn't anticipated that benefit. :)

That was really really cool.

[50-ft-queenie.livejournal.com]

As a matter of fact, one of the old friends we ran into at the wedding called us out of the blue this morning wanting to do brunch. We had a great time and we're already making plans for the next one. :)